[0:00:07 Speaker 0] Well, welcome to you all. I'm Professor thomas Pangle, 

[0:00:11 Speaker 1] I'm 

[0:00:11 Speaker 0] the co director 

[0:00:12 Speaker 1] of the thomas Jefferson Center for the study of cortex and ideas. That's the undergraduate great books program here at the University of texas. I think many or most of you will be familiar with it, but if anyone here isn't and would like to ask me about it afterwards, I'll be very happy to talk with you. You have many activities uh in addition to our courses, very active book club. Uh and in in in particular we have a lecture series in which we uh bring in and welcome distinguished lecturers from outside the university as well as from within and today we're very privileged to welcome and to be able to listen to uh Professor mary Nichols who is uh a professor of political science and for a long time was chairman of the department of Political Science at Baylor University. She is a very distinguished scholar of the history of political thought, especially greek political thought, but also what the philosophers have said about politics and literature and what was is found in literature about political thought and political philosophy and also about politics and film. She's the author of numerous important articles in learned journals and of five books. Her first was called Socrates and Political Community and Ancient debate. Uh Then she published a book on uh woody Allen, reconstructing woody art, love and life in the films of Woody Allen. Uh then a book on Aristotle Citizens and statesman, a study of Aristotle's politics. Uh and then she returned to Socrates and published a book entitled Socrates on Friendship and Community. And most recently in 2015, she published her book Through Cities and the Pursuit of freedom. And she is today going to talk to us on themes from that 

[0:02:16 Speaker 0] book, Leadership in Three cities. Thank you. Now my microphone is only for the recording. So you all are going to have to let me know if you can't hear me way back there. But the thing is if you can't hear me, you can get the recording later online, where it will be very easy to hear me. So how are we doing back there? Okay. But I'm trying I'll try to maintain it. But you know, as lecturers go off and they get involved in what they're saying, They forget all about projecting. So if you just wave your hands as if I'm not looking up, that will be a problem. But I'll try. Uh so I'm really happy to be here. In fact honored to be here. And I understand that many of you are familiar with acidity is history of the Peloponnesian war. Some of the graduate students are taking it as a seminar and other of you in the program have read parts of facilities, perhaps pericles, funeral oration. But at any rate, I am so happy to come to be able to talk with you about this topic of leadership. Uh, you know, through cities, history was written. It took, first of all, the history of the the Peloponnesian war took place a long time ago, 400 years over 400 years. Bc. And it was written a long time ago because its author through cities wrote it while the war was going on, or at least a large part of it while the war was going on. So it's it's a very ancient work. And we have to raise the question can history such as stupidities is teach lessons that transcend time in place through acidity is one of the world's first historians thought so. But he wrote his history quote as a possession for all time. This afternoon, I will explore what Thucydides has to teach us about leadership. The question of leadership cannot be separated from the issue of freedom. Many readings of facilities emphasised the extent to which political leaders are constrained by forces beyond their control. Lucidity says, for example, that the war was made inevitable or necessary by the growth of Athenian greatness and spartan fear of that greatness. The Athenian empire clearly constrains the actions of both the imperialistic city Athens and its antagonists, the Spartans and her allies on the Peloponnesus. But if human life allows no scope for human agency, there would strictly speaking be no leadership. Those who appear as leaders would be led just as much as their followers compelled by the various forces that constitute necessity. In contrast to such readings that minimize human agency, I argue that fourth, lucidity is leadership itself demonstrates freedom. I shall proceed by examining central moments in the careers of four prominent leaders in facilities history, three from Athens during different periods of the 27 year war and one from Sparta. Athens primary antagonists in the war. I begin with the Athenian Pericles, whom facilities understood, I think as the consummate statesman for a democratic regime, which looks up to freedom even when it understands that its freedom requires ruling other cities. I then turned to brassard us, the Spartan general who attempted to liberate cities from Athenian hegemony, but in doing so became increasingly alienated from his own city and unable to act. Third, I discuss al Subaih cities who pushed his understanding of Athenian freedom to the point of threatening the very freedom of the city. I conclude with Nick Ius another opinion, General, he's elderly, cautious and he was, I argue, so insufficiently free of his city, that he could not lead his army to safety. In each case leadership succeeds or falters, depending on the character of the leader and his relation to his political community, on the ways in which he makes its ideals and aspirations his own and on the ways in which he is able to share his own ideals and aspirations with his community. First Pericles, which I call the whom I call the peak of Athens greatness. Pericles is the most capable Athenian of his time. Lucidity, says both quote, both in speaking and acting not only in his famous funeral oration, but also in urging policies. Pericles asked the Athenian people to understand themselves as free individuals and their city as a free city. He interprets for them what their freedom means and demands facilities tells us that Pericles led the people rather than being led by them. For when he saw them overconfident, his speech aroused fear and when he saw them unreasonably afraid, he encouraged them through acidity shows us Pericles explaining the threats the city faces, those would cause fear. The reasons for hope. Those would cause confidence as the occasion demanded. I will give you examples of how Pericles talked to the people by looking at the speeches of Pericles and lucidity is history. I'm able to do this because through cities wrote are recorded speeches for some of his main characters in his work. The leaders like Pericles generals and embassies from one city to another. So facilities work is filled I believe with something approximately like 44 speeches in direct discourse where the characters I'm speaking of it as it's as if it were a work of poetry and I tend to drop into that mistake. It's not simply a work of poetry, but their carriages who speak up and facilities lets them speak for themselves. It's a very unusual way of writing history. Uh uh, so we we we we hear Pericles, his first speech in two cities work just before the outset of the war, when he speaks to the Athenians in response to Sparta's demand for concessions from Athens. If the Athenians yield, Pericles insists Sparta will make only greater demands. War is therefore necessary, he argues, in order to preserve their independence and freedom, the quote more willingly, they accept the war, the sooner they will ward off the greatest dangers and achieve the greatest honors. While others in the history refer to the compulsions of fear, honor and advantage. Pericles emphasis is on honor, but to be compelled by. Honor is not the same as to be compelled by fear. Honor might entail risking one's life for the sake of others are because it is the noble thing to do. However much the actions of human beings respond to circumstances and facilities never denies that they do. They also come from within, as Paraguay's claims of Athenian courage, actions are not merely compelled from outside. Freedom is a potential, not a necessity, although it is necessary for full humanity, it must be claimed, taken and exercised. Now, I believe that's true. But I'm also think I'm speaking for the lucidity is here. The second speech that Pericles gives in facilities work is his famous funeral oration. It occurs near the end of the first year of the war. Pericles begins in a daring way criticizing the law that mandates that such a speech, such an oration in honor of those who fall in battle, be made such a law. Parasols objects. Makes the virtue of the Fallen depend on whether one man speaks well or badly. It is fortunately Paradises speech on which the virtue of the Fallen now depends for he is the one delivering the aeration. Virtue depends on its public interpretation and remembrance. In order to understand the achievement of those who gave their lives. For Athens, Pericles says, it is necessary to understand the city that they served its regime and its way of life. Pericles uses both of those words. He highlights Athens Democratic principles, which he says favored the many rather than the few Athens equality. That's one of the principles, but it permits merit to rise according preeminence in the city's affairs to those recognized for virtue while treating all equally before the law. In private matters, Pericles own preeminence by implication, is consistent with Athens democratic principles. It is that equality that allows him to rise. Uh Indeed, his preeminence is due to those principles. Although Pericles does not say so or brag, his emphasis is all on Athens, not on himself. We Athenians, he says, conduct ourselves with freedom in the first place we share in political affairs and consider any who does not do so useless. So the Athenians are free because they are allowed to and do participate in politics. We also differ, he says, from our opponents in the current war by opening our city to all, rather than driving out foreigners, preventing no one from learning about our practices, even though some enemy might benefit from seeing what we do not hide. So too. In private life, neighbor does not become angry with neighbor, he says, for doing what he pleases. Athens freedom is thus based on its strength, its self sufficiency which carries over into the lives of its citizens. Athenians do not have to hide and it is the strong who do not have to hide. They are. Athenians are law abiding to be sure and heed. The rulers and the laws especially, he says though, the ones that are for the benefit of those who suffer injustice and the unwritten laws whose violation bring shame Athenians are moved less by the fear of punishment, from violating laws than by their own sense of the shameful and hence of the noble. This is a city for which an Athenian might understandably give his life and in doing so justify his life as he becomes Peric lee says, a lover of his city, that's the funeral oration facilities makes clear the demanding, even too demanding character. A Pericles rhetoric when he turns immediately after the funeral oration to the devastating plague that visits Athens and the degrading way in which the Athenians respond to their suffering during the plague. Indeed, Athenians commit crimes in the belief that they will die of the plague before being punished for them, overcome by sufferings harsher than human nature can bear. They blame. They come to blame Pericles for the war and the Athenians seek peace with Sparta. Enough of this wartime suffering. Pericles then comes forward to speak again. This will be the third speech he gives in facilities history. Pericles does not deny that he is to blame for the war, but he insists that the people too are responsible because they supported it. He insists on their common responsibility as he emphasizes why they should remain at war by showing his own confidence, he tries to restore the people's confidence and thereby to soothe their anger. Just as Pericles presents Athens as a model for other cities to imitate. He now presents himself as a model for the Athenians and how they should respond to their sufferings. While the Athenians regret their decision to go to war because of their sufferings, Pericles claimed to remain the same and has not changed. While the Athenians are confounded by domestic afflictions and neglect the common affairs of the city, Pericles claims 

[0:16:33 Speaker 1] to be quote 

[0:16:34 Speaker 0] a lover of the city, or that he loves his city. Only if the Athenians use Pericles as a model can the distraught Athenians show themselves worthy of the rule they have achieved and maintained both their rules and their freedom. Although other sources tell us that Pericles lost his son and other relatives to the plague. Plutarch, by the way, is one of them. Pericles does not mention any personal losses in his public speech before the people, nor does he recount anything about his family's experience of the plague. He does not, metaphorically speaking, bring his family into court to appeal to his audience is pity. He stands before the assembly as self sufficient as the city he describes In the funeral oration. Pericles persuades the Athenians to persevere in the war and they eventually choose Pericles as general again and turn their affairs over to him. Whereas Pericles asked them to turn themselves their affairs over to the city by becoming its lovers. The people turn to Pericles. Pericles mediates their love or devotion to the city. The ways of the city that Pericles praises as worthy of love become manifest in the ways of Pericles. Pericles represents Athens to the Athenians through speech that both elaborate is fundamental Athenian ideals and illustrates those ideals by his own attitude towards them, by his own bearing. Whatever reservations through acidity is has about Paraguay's and that's another interesting question. But whatever reservations facilities has about Pericles, he claims that Pericles led Athens when Athens greatness reached its peak. Now, Brassard us Brass. It This is what I call alienation from his city. He is the spark in general at the outset of the war through cities tells us Sparta proclaimed its goal as lip as liberating the greek world from Athenian domination and gain the goodwill of many of those cities subject to Athens and the goodwill of others, fearing that they would become So facilities does not tell us what farm that proclamation took are exactly who made it on behalf of Sparta. Although many of Sparta's allies refer to the city's noble purpose, it's like encouraging them. Come on, you got to liberate the world right from Athens and that's good for the Allies. So although the allies speak of the city's noble purpose, the Brass it this is the first part and to do so, several years after the war began. In other words, it's not clear that Sparta really has this noble purpose of liberation. Sparta, Thucydides tells us fears Athens increasing power. Sparta is fighting for its own autonomy or preservation. Brass it is, however, does take an army on a thracian campaign to the area around three race and he liberates cities from Athenian sway. When cities in the greek world, see are here about Brass addis, they are impressed by his virtue and they become more favorable to the Spartan side in the belief that other Spartans are like him, but few like Brass, It has come forth from Sparta in facilities history, Brass. Adidas misrepresents his city to the world. When Brassicas and his army arrive in three race, he explains to the city's there that events of the war prevented Sparta from coming earlier to liberate them. But now Sparta has sent him to prove true to its purpose. Moreover, Brassicas says Sparta promises the cities who are liberated their autonomy. Sparta will not impose any particular form of government on them. Indeed Brass idiots would not truly offer them freedom. He says, if Sparta were to involve itself in their internal politics, enslaving the greater part of their city to the few I establishing oligarchies are a smaller part to everyone. I establishing democracies. The city's gives us reason to doubt Brassicas representation of his city. Two Brass idiots claim that Sparta offers the liberated cities autonomy facilities has just provided a counter example of oligarchic oppression in Megara after the city fell to Sparta, moreover, whereas Brassicas claims that Sparta has sent him to prove true, it's noble purpose of liberating cities from Athens through cities tells us that the Spartans want to divert the Athenians from operations nearer to Sparta by threatening the Athenians elsewhere. Like in the race. Moreover, the expedition gives Sparta an excuse to send away some of its slave population As soldiers in the army facilities points out less. With the war going badly at home, the slaves started insurrection to boot. The Macedonian king offers to pay some A Brassicas troops who might then serve Macedonian purposes. Inthe race from facilities, account slaves and mercenaries paid by Macedonia and one Spartan. Brassard dis go to three race as the liberators of Greece. It's a dramatic moment. I think if you look at it in those terms, although Brassard his promises freedom, He lacks the resources to make good his promises. Sparta even refuses to send him reinforcements when he needs them. After his death, Sparta returns the liberated cities to Athens as part of its peace negotiations, Brassicas cannot succeed without the support of his city. He acts independently of his city, eventually refusing to obey its artists to suspend his efforts inthe race. He finally dies fighting in defense of one of the city's he liberated from Athens and Syphilis, where he has given a public burial and worship as a hero. He finds a home elsewhere, not in Sparta and only after his death that Brassard is acts without the authority of his city may suggest his freedom, but his alienation from his city thwarts his accomplishment. He needs those reinforces reinforcements. Although admiring Brassicas virtues, facilities questions his leadership for his own city does not follow his lead. His virtues are good, but without support from his political community. They are not entirely good. Now I'm moving to Al Subaih these After Brassicas death, the Spartans and Athenians negotiate peace one so tendentious that acidity is, insists that it did not really end the war during this period Alcibiades rises to prominence in Athenian politics. A young man of a distinguished family. One of the first acts that Thucydides describes is Alcibiades effort to dissolve Athens treaty with Sparta. The peace treaty just negotiated within the last year or two in favor of an alliance with our ghosts. Sparta's longtime enemy. Al sobriety is politics thus ignores agreements that have been made when better ones become possible. But it past agreements do not bind. Neither will new ones if still better ones become available when Alcibiades binds his city to an alliance with our Ghost for 100 years. The terms of the treaty, it might as well be 200 or 1000. There need be no limit to promises that can be revoked just before the Athenian expedition to Sicily, facilities describes Athens subjugation of the neutral island of my loss, although al sobriety is is not present when the Athenians approach and finally besieged me. Loss, his spirit hovers over the Athenians attempt to persuade the millions to surrender. The Athenians dismiss considerations of justice and appeal to a necessity of nature by which the strong subdue the week and the week acquiesce. This is a law that they did not make, they explained to the millions and it is followed by everyone, even the gods. They echo, the Athenians echo the unjust speech in Aristotle phonies, clouds when they appeal to the ways of God's to justify human wrongdoing that law that they appeal to, that even the gods father the law of the stronger has little in common with the law that Pericles thinks the Athenians he'd out of a sense of shame, except that it is unwritten. The Athenians at me lost hide their hubris behind their appeal to a necessity that applies to God and human alike in the Athenians, denial of any limits to their actions, they manifest alcibiades politics. Al Subaih cities is one of the main proponents of Athens expedition to Sicily, which is really to conquer the island. Uh He states there's a speech in the Athenian Assembly that he gives advocating the expedition, although Al zubaidi's admits that he knows about the far away island of Sicily only by hearsay. He has no experience of the island, He's never been there. But he nevertheless proclaims that the cities in Sicily lack the benefit of established customs. They are given to faction and they have no sense of a fatherland. From this account, the Sicilian cities seem to have no forms of government or ways of life that give them an identity Sicily is mere opportunity, a space for al Subaih these activity, he nevertheless, he admits, must work to bring the city's there into alliance with the Athenians. He will use his persuasive powers to unite the cities on the island of Sicily against Syracuse, the most powerful city there. The world will yield to his rhetoric or speech. He will conquer not by the sword, but by the force of his words. If the world is essentially unformed, alliances made and easily broken. For example, al sobriety is does not need experience of Sicily, he can make it what he will. Our societies claims that Athens must undertake the expedition to Sicily, because unless it rules others, it is in danger of being ruled by them. There is quote al societies no reckoning how far we wish to rule. He is like the Athenians at Mila's when they warn the millions that they should not expect the Spartans to come help them. For the Athenians, our commanders of the sea, nope, the Spartans won't be able to reach me loss because of the Athenian might at sea. The sea is no wider than their reach. Like al Subaih cities, they verge on asserting command of the unlimited or infinite. A desire for sailing away through cities. Reports felon all alike. Nicholas, the Athenian general who spoke against the expedition had called Athens Desire for the expedition. A quote diseased love for the far away. The word translated as far away, means in greek the absent, whatever is away, but the absent is infinite. It is whatever is not present here and now liberated from the restraint of particular purposes and objects. Without destination or goal. Love or desire becomes infinite. The Athenians are sailing to Sicily, but the conquest of Sicily opens the imagination to one conquest after another. Italy after Sicily, then Carthage, then the Peloponnesus on which the city of Sparta is located and eventually all of the greek world. But Athens never reaches points beyond Sicily as a result of the expedition, the expedition meets ruin in Sicily and few return home. It is our societies who reaches points beyond Sicily. When the Athenians summoned him home from Sicily to face charges of plotting against the democracy, he escapes by sea, whereas the Athenians boasted to the millions that they should not expect aid to arrive because no one can elude them at sea, our societies escapes them. It is he who masters the sea. Pericles defends himself before the people when they accuse him of causing the war. You remember implicitly acknowledging that they can hold him into account, hold him to account. He has to answer to the people. When Alcibiades is called to answer charges, he goes, guess where to Sparta to advise his city's enemy. And when he has a falling out with the Spartans as well, I gather, it's easy to have a falling out with our societies when he has a falling out with the Spartans as well. He goes to advise the Persians, the Persian satrap, Tissa Farnese in particular, and he advises him on how to play off Athens and Sparta against each other. It is our societies who reaches no stopping point in Thucydides work for when his when facilities history breaks off in 4 11 Bc before the end of the war, which lasted by the 27 year period, account to around 404 When facilities breaks his history off in 4 11, al societies is still alive, negotiating with the Persian to safari knees and moving from one place to another and he has still not returned to Athens. To be sure in the last book of lucidity is history, Al Subaih. These plots to return to Athens by overturning the democratic regime that exiled him in favor of a more oligarchic one. As one of his opponents proclaims our societies is indifferent to regimes and cares only for the one most likely to lend him support. But al societies is not simply indifferent to regimes. He is hostile to all regimes, regimes, established institutions and determine who is to rule. Those rulers therefore do not merely rule. They rule because they are able to rise to prominence in their regime and that means they are also ruled by their regimes. Regimes stand, that is democracy. Oligarchy, forms of government, constitutions, written or not regime stand between the individual and his city structuring their relationship and their interaction. Unlike Pericles, our societies has no recognition of the importance of a regime in fostering and protecting freedom. Now I go to my fourth leader, Nick ius, and his failure to lead and the disaster that Athens suffered in Sicily. Nick Ius is the Athenian general who is sent along with Al zubaidi's is one of the commanders of the Sicilian expedition. In spite of his opposition to the undertaking, Nikias cannot stop the motion that all societies encourages and is dragged along. After all, sobriety is flees to Sparta and another of the co commanders is killed in battle. Nikias becomes the sole commander of the Athenian forces in Sicily, where he didn't want to go in the first place, he's there in charge when Sparta and her allies eventually, I'm skipping a lot of things that happened because as you know, the book is about this thick and I was told to end in a timely fashion today. Uh, So at any rate when Sparta and her allies come to aid in Sicily, Nicaea sees no prospect of survival unless the army quickly returns home. All are substantial. Help comes from Athens. Now, the commanders were given from the very beginning full authority on the expedition. Nevertheless, Nikias sends a letter to the Athenians asking them what he should do. You know the Spartans are coming, The army is deteriorating. Things are Allah cities on the island of Sicily are are going over to Syracuse. The mercenary sailors are deserting to the other side. Things look pretty bad. But instead of just saying, we've got to get out of here and go back, Nicholas writes, writes a letter to the Athenians. Uh, swift action in Sicily is imperative. And we know Athens is some distance away. That's why Nicky's didn't want to go in the first place. But Nikias cannot bring himself to act without the backing of the city. Whereas Brassicas does not follow the orders that are sent to him when he's in trace, Nikki has asked for artists when he should act on his own. Nikias fears returning quote unquote to Athens with his mission unaccomplished and that he will be held responsible for the expedition's failure. He does not even think about trying to persuade the Athenians as Pericles did that. The ones who approved the enterprise are also responsible are as responsible as its leaders for the hardships that result when Nicky his rights to the Athenians of their deteriorating condition in Sicily, he comes close to telling them that their cause is lost and that they must call the expedition home, which is what he really thinks. But he can't. He comes close to saying it, but he never goes that far. He flatters the Athenians into supposing that they are free to deliberate and therefore to choose. They must either recall the expedition, he says, or send out another just as large. And it's gigantic. One thing I skipped as facilities description of that expedition as it leaves the piracy is to go to to sail to Sicily. So send another one just as large. I recall his home seems obvious what they should do. He implies though, that it's still possible to conquer Sicily and this is what the Athenians want to hear. This is what they do here through cities earlier praised Paraguay's. You remember for instilling fear when the people were overconfident and fostering confidence when they are despondent. Nikias, in contrast, tries to instill fear, and he makes his audience overconfident because he himself is moved more by fear of his addresses than by confidence in himself. Nicholas must act independently of his city in order to serve it. He is too dependent on his city to go home. The Athenians repeat their earlier decision to go against Sicily and send another expedition in support of the first one. It is almost as if al Subaih, these were still in Athens influencing its decisions and Nikias were the one in exile. Even with reinforcements who eventually come, there are further disasters for the Athenian side. When matters gets so bad that the Athenians seem compelled to depart, there is an eclipse of the moon and Nikias accepts the Sears judgment that they must delay sailing home now. You know, in those days, every army brought its own seer. They were the ones who could see the future. That's what their name means. And so they could predict what was what would happen. And we don't have Sears today. We only have pollsters who also rely on eclipses of the moon as far as I can tell. Okay, so Nikias delays listening to the Sears. Uh, the delay allows their foes to attack. Once again, the Athenians are defeated and Nikias eventually surrenders. Nikias is executed and his soldiers no fewer than 7000. And that's a big number compared to other battles. No fewer than 7000 are imprisoned. Many others die, but 7000 are imprisoned where they meet miserable conditions, including the lack of life's necessities. And this also results in a great number of deaths, facilities pronounces that Nikias did not deserve. The misfortune he suffered. Inasmuch as I'm trying to translate this difficult passage as best I can. The law bread practices of his life were directed to every virtue the law bread practices. The virtue that Athens represents for Pericles, in contrast, is not simply law bread for it comes from within law bread virtue asked too much of human beings when it leaves no room for choice and too little when it does not require choice. If Nikki's his decision to surrender to stop the slaughter of his men manifest that he has finally learned to take responsibility. His learning comes too late. It takes Nikki is a long time to learn what Pericles knows. I conclude by drawing some contrast among these leaders and their successes and failures. Leaders cannot succeed in abstraction from those whom they lead, and in particular from the regimes that inform their actions and that they influence. In turn, Pericles holds up to his audience a model of a virtuous and free Athenian, both in the citizen he describes and in his own self presentation before the city, he is able to interpret Athens to itself as well as to the world. However much his city's deeds fall short of his noble words. He presents Athenians with a view of themselves that they can imagine might be true. Brazil is also depicts a noble view of his city to the world. A Liberator of Greece against Athenian tyranny with regard to international affairs. But this is only what Brassy disclaims Sparta to be. He interprets party to the world, but not to itself. Brass idiots delivers no speeches to the Spartan people in the way that all three of the Athenians, whom I have discussed do at Athens. When Sparta denies his request for reinforcements through cities reports, the denial is due in part to the envy of spotters. Leading men. Sparta has several such men who said it is does not name them, but Brassicas is not among them. He is in no position to speak for Sparta. We cannot explain we we cannot explain his virtue as lucidity as pericles. Let me go back. We cannot explain his virtue as facilities explains Nikki asses as law, bread because Brass, it is, I think, is a man without a city and as such, he cannot be a leader Al Subaih cities. In contrast to Nicholas seems to embody Athenian freedom. He proclaims the active character of the city and manifests that character in his own life. But if the virtue of an Athenian comes from himself, the one who most manifests that virtue is the one who owes leased to the regime and most to himself, al Subaih. These claims from exile expect it's his speech to the Spartans when he appears there in the city to advise them. He claims that he wants to repossess his city. If our societies could succeed in coming home, he would be an opinion due to his own act. His homecoming would mean not that he belonged to Athens, but that Athens belonged to him. If Athens could become the home of a man who acts as freely as our societies does and who therefore possesses his city through his own efforts, it would no longer be a free city and al Subaih these facilities lets us see the dilemma of being a leader in a free regime. Al Subaih teases so free that he cannot lead his city. Whereas our societies is lawless and facilities, uses the word lawless beyond or outside the law or even contrary to the law. Whereas Alcibiades is lawless. Nikias follows orders. He obeys the Athenian Assembly when it appoints him to command in Sicily. In spite of his reservations about the expedition, he asked for direction when he commands in Sicily. Whereas Alcibiades does not understand what his freedom owes to the Athenian regime. Nikias does not exercise the freedom that is Athens characteristic excellence. His dependence contributes to the disaster in Sicily. It is through cities, Para Clay's, I argue, who held together respect for Athens regime's laws and way of life with the freedom for human action that the regime made possible and made it worthy of respect. Pericles praises the choice of the noble over the pleasant, the just over the advantageous and the public good over private interests, choices that manifest freedom. Such choices may serve the pursuit of power, but they also moderated because they give it a purpose purpose, both restraints, freedom and calls for its exercise. And so Pericles and facilities are so pericles and facilities instruct their addressees. Neither Alcibiades nor Nikias was able to find in Athens the home that Pericles did. Al sobriety speaks of his city as unlimited motion, whereas Nikias tries to maintain Athens at rest or at least to do what is necessary to maintain the peace that he negotiated, but which is never secure. Whereas Nikias prefers never to leave home. The flexible al Subaih cities is at home everywhere, whether among the Athenians, the Spartans the Persians, precisely because he understands the world as a reflection of his own formless nous that he is Athens greatest failure does not reflect, does not prevent through city's preference for Athens over Sparta, just as he prefers Pericles leadership to that of the other leaders, he describes. The superior city is the one that not only allows, but also demands freedom and in which leaders can therefore follow its lead. Thank you. 

[0:48:48 Speaker 1] Well, the floor is open for questions. You can just call on people. 

[0:48:51 Speaker 0] Sure, okay. I know we have lots of Okay back there. Really. Mr Yeah. Leader receive this is Yes to see really a positive part. Never mind. Yeah. Yes. Currently is his term of office. Democracy was on the road ruled by the first sentence thinkable six. Where we get this debate, these two characters from Ocrates in an address Congress has the sort of most full throated defense of democracy in the book. He does cross also serious arrested situation. Yes, so mhm other aspects of the book, Of course, no, those are two excellent examples to bring up in this regard. Uh when facilities praises pericles in the course of that, he says that Athens was a democracy and name but ruled by its first man, uses the word on air in greek for a man now, does this mean that it was not simply a democracy? I think the point that facilities is making and I still see Pericles as a democratic leader. I make that argument. So I have and I know I have to defend that and this is a passage that counters goes against that thesis of mine. But I think what facilities is show is suggesting by that remark and showing us in the course of his history and that apparently is himself suggested in his speech, is that democracy requires leadership and that democracy cannot be based simply on a kind of consensus that is going to arise in some way without leadership or without the guidance of leaders. Pericles in his speech when he talks about equality as a democratic principle, he says, it allows merit to rise, we do not be a card preeminence in public affairs to those who deserve it, not on the basis of class or birth, I think he says. And in that sense, he is his leadership. And even though he is, in a way, quote ruling it is and he is the first man when he is in power, uh, it is still a democratic city. And if you look at what lucidity shows us about some of the examples which I didn't talk about here, uh, how and these could be brought up as you do. As you're two examples do that to say that parents that Pericles really was not a democratic leader, but had power in his hands. There are two times when he has to to restrain the people and and to go against what they want to do in the first place. When Sparta takes the field and they have assembled outside of the walls of Athens, they want to send, they send a messenger and they want to negotiate. And paragliders will not let that messenger in. He will not let the messenger go before the people to consider terms. Uh and that is his rule. He will not call a democratic assembly, but it is said that he put that policy in existence so that the people would not be overcome by their own fear by their passion and seeing the enemy just before the gates, it's something to deliberate without the enemy there, but when they're there and you can see the yeah, when you can see their weapons and you can see their swords or whatever they have glowing in the sun. I don't know if that's what's part of hell. They had shields. I know, but others had uh swords glowing in the sun that brass it has had to encounter. You don't want the, you want them to stick by their decisions. So it's an example that facilities brings up where it looks like Pericles is restraining the people from deliberating. When facilities actually explains it as a case in which Pericles was trying to preserve the deliberation of the people you can argue against. Well, you know, maybe they should have had a chance, but that at least is how facilities explains it. The second, the second instance when the Spartans are devastating the land outside the city and some of those, the Accordions who are the owners of the land, are seeing this. They want to go out and fight the Spartans right there on a land battle and Pericles has to hold them back and he will not hold an assembly to decide what to do. He wants them to stick to the policy that he had propounded and they had agreed on no new no land battles. Put an emphasis on your C power. So he it's one more time when he doesn't call an assembly and that looks very anti democratic. But given the situations that facilities describes it seems like he's trying to hold the people to the deliberation into the decisions they made rather than to give way to the passions that are aroused in the circumstances. So in in these various was I think the emphasis of facilities is on its democracy, but you have to have leaders in a democracy. You can't think that democracy doesn't have leaders when Pericles talks about the participation of everyone, If he were just the ruler, the authoritarian ruler, that would make no sense. But when he talks about it, he says that everyone participates at least the Athenian citizens whether judging or pra pounding policy. So there are different ways of participating in a democracy, from Pericles presentation of it. And he does the propounding I think. And that seems to me clear to the way through cities presents it and he is not simply equal to the others. They do not participate in the same way that for facilities does not negate Athens being called a democracy, but it's not simply a simple egalitarian democracy. And your other example about you pronounce it? I'm sure in the right way I'm not very good in greek, but all I can remember is Athena Gorris, but Athena Garris, I'm sure there must be horrified. Well, these words, when they have glorified syllables think of all the different ways you could pronounce them. Well, not really, but at any rate, he's an interesting character. He doesn't say much or play much of a role. He's he's one of the Syracuse and figures. I did not speak of all the leaders, only a four of them. Well, we have Herm Ocrates who is the Syracuse and leader of note, and Athena Gorris who speaks against him. And in his short speech, Athena Gorris presents the uh a defense of democracy, accusing Herm Ocrates quite explicitly applauding, you know, uh to bring the aristocratic youth into, to make the elites in charge and Athena Gore's defense democracy. And it looks like, you know, one of the few, if not the only, or maybe at least the best defense of democracy in the city's history. But the way he defends democracy is because of the various pieces that come together. He describes it as a kind of mixed regime that is based on the many, the few and the, I don't recall the worthy or the virtuous, the best and so all of those mean democracy for him, that seems to me more consistent with what I am describing as Pericles on democracy uh than than you might think so I can use Athena Gore is a statement as defense of Pericles and what he did. There seems to me somewhat similar, a kind of mixture of different things where a lot of different people, but factors are allowed to play a part where you can come up with a mixture guided by a statesman and get the best out of the situation. I won't say more than that because I have talked about your examples and I know there are other questions but I too agree that Athena Gorris is a very interesting figure in trying to figure and and wondering what he's doing in facilities work and what role he plays and that's related to the larger question of facilities view of Syracuse. Another quote, Democratic city that has some of the problems that Athens Athens does, but I won't go there unless anyone else wants to push there because I want to see what other questions are waiting. Yes. Figure. It seems that we want to be seen skates and your economy is Yes, very, yes, yes, whatever may be. All right. Apparently, that's a very interesting question, idiots. Well, it would be another fine. No, it's just that I present. I have a I have shown a friend, a friend of mine read this a version of this and she said, you know, it's good, but you're just too sympathetic to parallels. That's why I threw that in because I don't think, I mean, I think I said he is the best of these leaders from facilities point of view, but sometimes you just have to choose the best of your options. You may notice this in the last few days we had to do that. Uh, I think Pericles is good for all of the reasons, but uh gay but he's not lucidity ease. And if I'm right in that he presents facilities, presents him as uh, self sufficient in his stance before the city, facilities protects his self sufficiency. Plutarch. Others tell us that he had relatives suffer from the plague. He actually was devastated when the last of his sons died of the plague. And what facilities does tell us is that Pericles died? Plutarch tells us he died of the plague. And so facilities is protecting Pericles in a way and going along with this kind of myth of self sufficiency. And maybe there are times I think when a city needs that, but lucidity is knows that his pericles is not self sufficient and lucidity is is not self sufficient. The greatest model for us to imitate from facilities. Point of view is that of lucidity is not apparent please or any of these other leaders. But the acidity is writes well, uh that gets complicated given the fact that he did lead an expedition at one point uh in the war. But in the sense of how facilities presents himself as a model, Pericles presents himself as a model and lucidity shall we say? Let's Pericles do that. Indeed, he presents Pericles as a model facilities does. But soon, as we get what what facilities does is tell us immediately about the plague. Which suggests that Pericles is overreaching that he has demand that his rhetoric demands, which I did say in this paper, his rhetoric demands too much of the Athenians. I believe it's Pericles who calls the Athenian self sufficient when through acidity is uses that word self sufficient. And there are three other examples where facilities uses it if I remember, it's never in that good sense. It's always a problem when through cities uses it in his own voice. Through cities is finds that there are problems with the stance of this noble presentation of freedom that Pericles cakes, but he allows Pericles to do it in the first place. Maybe because maybe it's needed at certain times, but it's also too demanding. And I think he shows the dangers of that as well. There is an issue, you know, as to whether Paraclete has led to the disaster of Athens for one. And there there there there are a lot of theories that say if our societies is the main culprit here, and I think our societies and Nikki is combined are the main culprits. But if Alcibiades is the main problem with his, shall we say, over interpretation of Athenian freedom and his attempt to embody it, and it leads to a kind of disaster, which I would argue. Do you then can raise the question of whether is our survival as the true heir of Pericles, isn't it? Pericles in his support of the Athenian empire? In his saying, let's go to our, in his saying, as he does. And at the end of one of his speeches, we really rule the whole world because we rule the sea, the one who rules the sea rules the land. So you have nothing to worry about, Look how powerful we are. That's the kind of rhetoric that looks a bit excessive. And you could argue that leads to our societies rhetoric. If that's the case, then that would be part of the acidity. Xyz criticism of Paraguay's, on the other hand, Pericles didn't go that way. He didn't go in that direction. As long as he was living, he would have, I'm assuming, prevented the Sicilian expedition. There's a little ambiguity as to whether Athens is still at war. He's quite clear. Pericles no new conquest while you are at war, but they do have that so called peace with, with Sparta, that Nikias negotiated and you might think they're not at war. But even Nikias admits what lucidity says, the piece is not secure. So, I think we are safe to say to project that Pericles would not have supported the Sicilian expedition and therefore he didn't go as far as our societies. Our societies is is Athenian freedom unleashed. Pericles was able to hold it in in in some kind of bounds that his successes were unable to do. But there is still that feeling that maybe he could, he didn't, why didn't he educate others better? I know you've heard that criticism, why didn't he provide for the kind of leadership that was lacking after he died? Assuming he is a good leader, a good leader would do more than Pericles did. He would have thought more of the future than Pericles did. And he would not have assumed that he was self sufficient. And you don't have to worry about his dying, which in effect he does without trying to provide for the future facilities protects him a bit on that issue as well. Because he never says what all the ancient sources say that Alcibiades was the How do you say the opposite of that? Pericles was the guardian and uncle of all societies. The city facilities never says that he breaks that connection, as if he is trying to disassociate Pericles from our societies so that he Pericles will not seem responsible for this nephew of his, whom he should have contained better than he did. So I think that's one of the ambiguities and trying to figure out how far facilities would criticize Pericles. And I do think it's on the issue of nobility self sufficiency that Pericles assumes for himself. Uh And also that he thinks that others can live up to when in fact they can't, but he nevertheless encourages responsibility and the people, I would argue. So like all things, it's mixed. How could you? Pericles tries to walk a kind of middle line, right? When he says no new conquest while you are at war? Well, in a, in a way that's almost very hard to maintain. Maybe you can, maybe Pericles can do it, but they'd always be pulling on either side of that. Even when Pericles was alive, he did not have such perfect power in Athens. That's another way to and to go back to the question of Pericles and democracy, which I didn't go into. But there are other instances that facilities tells us that shows that Pericles doesn't have absolute sway as when they call him before the city to blame him for the war and they find him. So it's not like he's got all the power in the city, but so I got interrupted, which was my thought devon It was, yeah, the credit facilities criticism, uh, of Pericles, Well, I'll just leave it at that unless you want to push it. There's a, there's, there's more, I mean, the senate facilities does not have. Pericles mentioned that his family died of the plague. It would be an opportune time that people are blaming him their suffering. He could go before them and say, look, I'm suffering to, you know, my favorite son just died. I feel your pain. He could do that very easily because he has felt their pain because it's his pain and he doesn't do that. And Thucydides doesn't have him do that. Uh, facilities then goes on to describe the plague. And in the course of that description of the plague, lucidity says, I can tell you about it because I saw it and because I came down with the plague myself, the plague attacked to me. So he treats, he presents himself in as a file for Pericles, whichever way you go. It doesn't matter. He contrast himself, but uh, with Pericles, uh, facilities is not pretending to an invulnerability that Pericles pretends to. And in a way, I think that would make him a more humane leader then. Pericles was I don't know. Mm Yes, maybe you can clarify uh huh uh huh feet ever love from Yeah, pieces and I think you suggest that here is Oh also even in the world of honor. Yes. Morning fire. Exactly. Well I am aware that people who love honor can be compelled to do all kinds of crazy things and dangerous things to themselves and to their city. But at the same I guess I was saying that it's it's free or in the sense that it's a noble because you do have to rise above putting your own life cursed to do the honorable thing and that was the point I was trying to stress and that's why I was connecting it. I would only go so far in making that case because of the it is a compulsion the Athenians say I mean the the uh the embassy, the envoys in Sparta, they say it's one of three compulsions and then they use that word necessities. Pericles emphasizes honor more than the others. At the same time he emphasizes a theme and freedom and a lot of different kinds of ways by way of their actions, both individual, both as individuals and as the city. And he he emphasizes honor along with that appeal to freedom. So I was trying to explain why he could do that. Now even Pericles doesn't simply he obviously has a rhetoric that will appeal to fear as well as facilities himself says when they're overconfident, he uh made them afraid. So he's aware of using fear. Like in the last three she gives when he says our empire may have been unjust to acquire. But now we have it, we can't let it go. In other words there if we try to let go and do the do the dress thing, if that is the dress thing, they will come kill us. So we really are. We should be afraid of the ones we rule. So Paraclete. I didn't mean to say he didn't appear appeal to fear or interest at all, but the emphasis is on honor and he connects honor with freedom. Yes. So it sounds like now. Bye. Do what? Five? Okay. And Mhm. Mhm. Expedition was launched in part. I would argue that. Yes. Mhm. My question is why, right. 

[1:10:58 Speaker 1] One of the main causes of Sicily mission and therefore at this uh huh. Did the lovely expedition 

[1:11:10 Speaker 0] not after all supplied to speak? Yeah, I noticed that. I mean, I think the when when through Sydney says, and arrows were sailing away fell on all alike. He then goes on and it becomes a bit complicated because they are not all alike, but that's at least how he begins that paragraph. Uh, and it is after Nikias Second speech And Nic Nicky has helped that along by trying to counter they're going. But the idea of sailing away uh huh That comes from our societies, Nikki has tried to keep them from sailing away and promoted what our society is wanted by giving those who are more afraid of the expedition, greater confidence that it could succeed as acidity is presents that as you know, because uh, Nikki's goes on and on about how much we're going to need to conquer Sicily, men supplies, how far away it is. It's too difficult even if we conquered it, we couldn't rule it because it's too far away. Every reason not to go. And so Nicholas intends to keep them there. And the rhetoric is just counterproductive. They decide all the more and that's when facilities makes the point are also for sailing away. Fell in all alike. Nikki has helped it along, but not not because he had it, it seems to me to come from our society. So, I mean, it's again, that would maybe confirmed that it takes both of them. Our societies, shall we say love or arrows and nick uses over caution to produce it, oddly enough. Oh, sorry. I 

[1:13:01 Speaker 1] wonder if you would say a little bit more about your judgment of 

[1:13:06 Speaker 0] Brassicas. 

[1:13:07 Speaker 1] Uh, because as as you, as you brought it out, he's a fundamentally alienated from Sparta. Uh, and so he makes 

[1:13:18 Speaker 0] this extraordinary attempt 

[1:13:21 Speaker 1] to make Sparta live up to its noblest claim or reputation. Um, and so my question is, what, how do you understand what was going on in his mind? And do you judge it favorably or unfavorably? That is, as you point out, there's plenty of evidence that Sparta was never going to move in this direction. And so what he wound up doing was getting these cities to revolt against Athens and then getting them turned over to the tender mercies of Athens at the end 

[1:14:02 Speaker 0] of the day? 

[1:14:03 Speaker 1] Uh And so is how do you understand what he was? What did he think? Was he was he was doing or going on? Was it was it uh how how how are we to understand that? 

[1:14:17 Speaker 0] Well, I have wondered, and we don't have certain evidence from vicinities, but since the vicinities praises his virtues, uh I think he was, you know, it was his cause. Did he think that Sparta would come? Was he not able to? Was he so naive to think that Sparta would send the reinforcements? And he did surprise? I mean, maybe he wasn't he He almost did it. He almost got away with liberating the city's, he doesn't have the reinforcements, but he gains more from the city's. He liberates people join him and he did so well. That's what upset Athens so much and lead them to negotiate. But all the rhetoric he used was really appealing to those under Athens way. Of course their interests did and their fear dead. Because he's got his soldiers out there. At one point when a campus decides the first one to yield, they say the crops, they better protect their crops because the Spartan army will destroy their crops. So you've got interest and fear as well as appealing to the desire for freedom and self determination in away our autonomy. I think he believed in those goals. I mean, maybe I'm naive and maybe he was naive, but he thought he might carry it off. And I think that was absurd. And as you say, there's all the evidence to the contrary that facilities gives us that there is no way that's part is going to do that. But in a way he was sparked as Yeah, I will say it any way I can see the best moment because he did when when it is sad. I think it's at the beginning of book two of the history that Sparta proclaimed its purpose is liberating grease from Athens rule and no one says as far as Spartans, don't say it, who says it. And so I decided to see who said it. And if you look if you look at Arkad Obama's speech and book one when he talks about purpose and what kind of war it is has nothing to do. There are reasons to go to war, But we're going to do it in a cautious manner. Nothing to do with liberating cities are helping the greek world out and nothing along those lines. It's the, it's current, the Corinthians who mentioned that and our Academia's does not pick up on it. When Arkad Amos gives his first speech as a general to the army outside of Athens, it's one of these speeches where you rouse the army and you tell them all the noble things you're trying to accomplish never mentions the purpose. It seems conspicuously absent from Spartan speeches. Uh, when, when the mental Iranians come over to get sparked and help when they revolt in book three, they mentioned that purpose. Everyone knows it's part is purpose except the Spartans themselves. And so I think facilities is very critical of Sparta more than a lot of people who read this book. And when Brass, it is not only proclaims that he is the first part and to do it, and he actually acts on it. You know, when the I don't know how to pronounce these. Either the Charles citians, perhaps they come over to request aid from Sparta, let's there inthe race. And they say we want Brass. It is to come. They've been watching and they and they said we want him because he is and it's a doer. It's a wonderful greek word. I don't know. I know it's from a common verb, but it's not used that often. The draw history on the act, the one who acts. That's Brass it this, you know, and you know, he is the best that Sparta can put forward. I think what is part of known for. I don't know if it's ambiguous, I was gonna say it's action or it's being at rest and you can you can make a case in either way but Brass it, this is the actor and he will act for those ideals that the whole world is hoping that Sparta will live up to and only Brassard as it does. He dies. I mean, he runs into the battle, the first one. There's nothing left for him to do. I mean, he couldn't go home. He's already resisted the commands of his superiors. I don't see any evidence. One other of a possible explanation which I think is waiting and that he was he was uh somehow he knew and he was very you have to say you could you could give a very machiavellian type interpretation of what Brassicas does. He knows that it's not going to work. But if he gets those cities to come over to Sparta side, it will be easier for Sparta to return them and therefore get what's part of most desires a piece and to have its soldiers all Spartans return their prisoners in Athens from the disaster on the islands, bacteria spark is very interested in negotiating and getting the return of the prisoners. And so once Brassicas succeeds to the extent he does, Athens becomes willing to do that, to negotiate with Sparta to have a peace treaty and return the prisoners. So the Machiavellian interpretation is he's trying to help his city out because he knows exactly what they're gonna do and by lying to the world, at least to the cities that he appeals to, he will get them to risk themselves which they do because Athens is not going to be pleased with them at all for their revolt. He's gonna endanger them to fought to follow what he views in this part of use as its own interest. And that's really Machiavellian. But I don't see through acidity is telling us that. And he tells us a lot of things by in many ways. I mean it's one of the things about reading facilities. How does he tell us things in his own words, by his justice positions, by the stories he recounts. And I mean, I think you can't brazil, this is a noble man and lucidity ease admires his virtues. That's what I've said in the paper and I would stick to it if he were the Machiavelli and that I have just given an account of I don't think I could unless facilities admires Machiavellian virtues. Well, that's another direction one might go. But I I think he admires the virtues that he attributes to him. I believe what he says. That Brazil has had all of these and he was the way the world respected Sparta because they thought he represented Sparta. Yes. Mhm. Mhm. This appears right. Yes. Yeah. Key along with clear the two men who are the most opposed product 73%. So vicinities is used to recite this as a shining example virtue. How do you make sense about? Well, I don't think leon is a shining example of virtue by any way of interpreting it. And I again, I can see different interpretations of brass. It is on this one. Uh I think that they do die in the same battle but the role they play in that battle is so different that I think we would have to if we are guided by through cities and are looking at that battle, we would have to contrast these two leaders who die in that battle rather than see their similarity. It is true that they would they resist the peace, but you could say they resist the piece as far as facilities presents it for somewhat different reasons. You could say clearly on at least from the way he dealt with wanted to deal with metal lean from the speech he gives in the Medellin Ian debate in the Athenian Assembly. From other things we see of the way through cities describes him as a very, shall we say, Angry man wants revenge. He's kind of brutal in his practice is uh exactly the opposite of the way through cities presents Brassicas. He calls brass. It is gentle. That is one of the words the adjectives he uses to praise brass idiots and we see his brass idiots laying out terms for the surrender of the city that are so generous that other cities want to come over to. Brassard as you know. And so when you look at his deeds versus clearance deeds and speeches as facilities presents them. The difference between them seems to me so clear that I don't think we could say that they are alike. The fact that they both die in the same battle. It seems to me to highlight the different characters that are now quote representing or not as the case may be their cities, the different characters that have come out of those cities, even if they're not farmed by those cities, at least US cities at their best. I mean the battle is quite it's the battle at Amphipolis, the last battle in which Brass it is killed. I mean he leads the way he leads a few soldiers. It's almost cory Alleyne is like if you read Shakespeare's play, it's so amazing. But the way he said it is describes it. He leads the forces and he says he's it's so clear he wants to do the first one out there. It parallels the situation when he was in that boat at pilots and he said, we're going to go and we're going to ground our boat so we can have no retreat. And he's standing in the tip of the boat. He's the one who gets wounded there as a result is the same pattern that lucidity shows us. He is first into the battle clear on, in contrast, was never intending to have the battle of Amphipolis. Uh, he wanted to make sure as at another city that he had redeemed from its liberation, That Brassicas wasn't there before he attacked. He's waiting for reinforcements. Cleon jones men say, we've just got to go out. It's an opportune time. And Clinton says, okay, well go out and we're gonna take a look, we're just going out to look And sure enough brass it is. Looking from the hide, sees them, comes down to act, but and then then the army retreats and clear Iran's army where he is, breaks ranks and that leads to the disaster I believe uh, to sit as these reports, something like, oh, I don't know how many Athenians died versus how many of those on Brassard is aside, it's a huge I can't remember. Can anyone? Yes, yeah. Adam fearfulness. The Athenians and seven starts. That's always you raised my did he say Spartans this part and side even in the battle of the 15? Yeah, yeah. It's only seven on this part, which the crisis is one because he ran straight into the middle of 15, which could be interpreted as you've misinterpreted as his remarkable courage. But it also raises another question because it comes right as a moment must be going that his whole project coming around. It is and so at least tails wonder whether it was an exclusive Yeah, No, I think it was to some extent. Well, in the sense that let me not say, let me not go that far, I think he knew he was going to die in this battle and he placed himself in a situation where that was likely, you may say that's enough to indicate suicide. I admit that much. You know, he is he is sacrificing or praying or whatever it is, visiting a temple. I believe the temple to Athena just before the battle, which would in a way be some evidence for that interpretation. Why I still think I'm not putting the fact he thinks it's all over, there's nothing he can do but die. I had said he couldn't go home. He's ruled that out. So that supports that too. But what he's doing is one last I'll say stand. But of course he's never standing. He's always running. That's how facilities describes him. So it's like one last run that indicates our represents to the world the best that Sparta could be our his courage and he dies because he can't go home. But he's not just saying you can kill yourself with poison. There are many ways you could kill yourself. This is how he decided to do it. In one last image of the best that Sparta could put forth and he is that representing his city. So I agree with what you're saying and I think there is that going on. But I would put that other twist on it to preserve his nobility in that very last act. You see the kind of yeah, really agree with because he's the last best hope of anthropologie tins or how are you and his death while they regarded as this heroic system such extent they almost turned him into or leads them far more exposed survive. So it seems to me it has it it's something of a caps under the whole residents account an apparent mobility. They do each those. It is supposed to two no use them exposing vulnerable. Doesn't is genuinely a service and to some extent this city should that there was something resplendent about grasses, his mobility, but also something hobble. Well, I agree with that to some extent. You know what I said that his virtues were not simply good because they were not supported by his city and I was going and when I said that I was going somewhat in the direction you're going in that that facilities could not be simply praiseworthy of brass. It is because of the great damage he did. And one city Schiavone, in fact, I think its name was who got it was treated terribly by Athens once the peace came about and it was returned and taken over again by the Athenians. In fact, what happens there is exactly what Leon was supporting in the metal lini in debate with regard to Medellin. But it actually happened with Schiavone be lost as well for that matter. Uh, so I don't, I agree that he wants facilities was not entirely supportive of those virtues and saw their problem. It's difficult, you could say to combine the noble and the advanced advantageous and that calls into question the noble to the extent you can't but with regard I don't think there was anything else that Sparta could do. I mean, what was he to do at that point? He had no reinforcements. Uh, so I'm not sure what he's staying alive with me. I think perhaps by his death he did the best he could do. And what he did do though with regard to Amphipolis for that city, which was one you could say that was dear to his heart and vice versa. Given how they treated him after he died by making him a hero and having public worship to him and having his public burial there, it preserved itself in facilities account. I don't know that future beyond facilities history. But curiously enough, the Spartan whom the Spartans had sent over to rule it rather than Brass. It is the Spartan man. I think his name is clearly, clearly does. Can you pronounce it? I mean, well, you must know. I don't know. But there was a Spartan and he's part of that battle. Uh Brass it is tells him to how to react. He says, let me go first. And they'll think that we're not that strong. Then you leave forces if you say yes and it will, it will really ralph that will see you will have the advantage of surprise, turns out they're not needed. But Clara is actually comes in as planned. Well at once, Sparta says, and the tree, this peace of Nikias and the cities have to be in terms Clay artists thus sparking who they said. So that Brass, it wouldn't be a problem for them anymore. He refuses to give and I think that was back. He's he they don't return it as far as I can tell within the confines of facilities history. He holds out. So my interpretation of that is that Brass. It is inspired him to be more than simply, I'll say a spartan. Let me tell you when when Brassicas gives clear instructions and he says you come leading the soldiers, run out there so you can route the Athenians, he says to him now act like a spartan and that's the word sparky height. You know, act like a sparky height. Act like the sparty it you are. So he's saying this is what Spartan virtue is. Brassicas is talking about spartan virtue. It's an interpretation. We don't know who else besides Brassicas. And now this other one ever did it ever had was that virtuous. But when he refuses to give back the city which is to refuse to follow orders, the peace treaty, what he's doing is not acting like a spartan, He's acting like brass. Adus 

[1:32:58 Speaker 1] well thank you very 

[1:32:59 Speaker 0] much