Well, welcome to you all. I'm Professor
thomas Pangle, I'm the co director of
the thomas Jefferson Center for the study
of cortex and ideas. That's the undergraduate
great books program here at the University
of texas. I think many or most of you
will be familiar with it, but if anyone
here isn't and would like to ask me about
it afterwards, I'll be very happy to talk
with you. You have many activities uh
in addition to our courses, very active
book club. Uh and in in in particular
we have a lecture series in which we uh
bring in and welcome distinguished lecturers
from outside the university as well as
from within and today we're very privileged
to welcome and to be able to listen to
uh Professor mary Nichols who is uh a professor
of political science and for a long time
was chairman of the department of Political
Science at Baylor University. She is a
very distinguished scholar of the history
of political thought, especially greek
political thought, but also what the philosophers
have said about politics and literature
and what was is found in literature about
political thought and political philosophy
and also about politics and film. She's
the author of numerous important articles
in learned journals and of five books.
Her first was called Socrates and Political
Community and Ancient debate. Uh Then
she published a book on uh woody Allen,
reconstructing woody art, love and life
in the films of Woody Allen. Uh then a
book on Aristotle Citizens and statesman,
a study of Aristotle's politics. Uh and
then she returned to Socrates and published
a book entitled Socrates on Friendship
and Community. And most recently in 2015,
she published her book Through Cities and
the Pursuit of freedom. And she is today
going to talk to us on themes from that
book, Leadership in Three cities. Thank
you. Now my microphone is only for the
recording. So you all are going to have
to let me know if you can't hear me way
back there. But the thing is if you can't
hear me, you can get the recording later
online, where it will be very easy to
hear me. So how are we doing back there?
Okay. But I'm trying I'll try to maintain
it. But you know, as lecturers go off
and they get involved in what they're saying,
They forget all about projecting. So if
you just wave your hands as if I'm not
looking up, that will be a problem. But
I'll try. Uh so I'm really happy to be
here. In fact honored to be here. And
I understand that many of you are familiar
with acidity is history of the Peloponnesian
war. Some of the graduate students are
taking it as a seminar and other of you
in the program have read parts of facilities,
perhaps pericles, funeral oration. But
at any rate, I am so happy to come to
be able to talk with you about this topic
of leadership. Uh, you know, through
cities, history was written. It took,
first of all, the history of the the Peloponnesian
war took place a long time ago, 400 years
over 400 years. Bc. And it was written
a long time ago because its author through
cities wrote it while the war was going
on, or at least a large part of it while
the war was going on. So it's it's a very
ancient work. And we have to raise the
question can history such as stupidities
is teach lessons that transcend time in
place through acidity is one of the world's
first historians thought so. But he wrote
his history quote as a possession for all
time. This afternoon, I will explore
what Thucydides has to teach us about leadership.
The question of leadership cannot be separated
from the issue of freedom. Many readings
of facilities emphasised the extent to
which political leaders are constrained
by forces beyond their control. Lucidity
says, for example, that the war was made
inevitable or necessary by the growth of
Athenian greatness and spartan fear of
that greatness. The Athenian empire clearly
constrains the actions of both the imperialistic
city Athens and its antagonists, the Spartans
and her allies on the Peloponnesus. But
if human life allows no scope for human
agency, there would strictly speaking
be no leadership. Those who appear as
leaders would be led just as much as their
followers compelled by the various forces
that constitute necessity. In contrast
to such readings that minimize human agency,
I argue that fourth, lucidity is leadership
itself demonstrates freedom. I shall proceed
by examining central moments in the careers
of four prominent leaders in facilities
history, three from Athens during different
periods of the 27 year war and one from
Sparta. Athens primary antagonists in
the war. I begin with the Athenian Pericles,
whom facilities understood, I think as
the consummate statesman for a democratic
regime, which looks up to freedom even
when it understands that its freedom requires
ruling other cities. I then turned to
brassard us, the Spartan general who attempted
to liberate cities from Athenian hegemony,
but in doing so became increasingly alienated
from his own city and unable to act. Third,
I discuss al Subaih cities who pushed his
understanding of Athenian freedom to the
point of threatening the very freedom of
the city. I conclude with Nick Ius another
opinion, General, he's elderly, cautious
and he was, I argue, so insufficiently
free of his city, that he could not lead
his army to safety. In each case leadership
succeeds or falters, depending on the
character of the leader and his relation
to his political community, on the ways
in which he makes its ideals and aspirations
his own and on the ways in which he is
able to share his own ideals and aspirations
with his community. First Pericles, which
I call the whom I call the peak of Athens
greatness. Pericles is the most capable
Athenian of his time. Lucidity, says
both quote, both in speaking and acting
not only in his famous funeral oration,
but also in urging policies. Pericles
asked the Athenian people to understand
themselves as free individuals and their
city as a free city. He interprets for
them what their freedom means and demands
facilities tells us that Pericles led the
people rather than being led by them.
For when he saw them overconfident, his
speech aroused fear and when he saw them
unreasonably afraid, he encouraged them
through acidity shows us Pericles explaining
the threats the city faces, those would
cause fear. The reasons for hope. Those
would cause confidence as the occasion
demanded. I will give you examples of
how Pericles talked to the people by looking
at the speeches of Pericles and lucidity
is history. I'm able to do this because
through cities wrote are recorded speeches
for some of his main characters in his
work. The leaders like Pericles generals
and embassies from one city to another.
So facilities work is filled I believe
with something approximately like 44 speeches
in direct discourse where the characters
I'm speaking of it as it's as if it were
a work of poetry and I tend to drop into
that mistake. It's not simply a work of
poetry, but their carriages who speak
up and facilities lets them speak for themselves.
It's a very unusual way of writing history.
Uh uh, so we we we we hear Pericles,
his first speech in two cities work just
before the outset of the war, when he
speaks to the Athenians in response to
Sparta's demand for concessions from Athens.
If the Athenians yield, Pericles insists
Sparta will make only greater demands.
War is therefore necessary, he argues,
in order to preserve their independence
and freedom, the quote more willingly,
they accept the war, the sooner they will
ward off the greatest dangers and achieve
the greatest honors. While others in the
history refer to the compulsions of fear,
honor and advantage. Pericles emphasis
is on honor, but to be compelled by.
Honor is not the same as to be compelled
by fear. Honor might entail risking one's
life for the sake of others are because
it is the noble thing to do. However much
the actions of human beings respond to
circumstances and facilities never denies
that they do. They also come from within,
as Paraguay's claims of Athenian courage,
actions are not merely compelled from outside.
Freedom is a potential, not a necessity,
although it is necessary for full humanity,
it must be claimed, taken and exercised.
Now, I believe that's true. But I'm also
think I'm speaking for the lucidity is
here. The second speech that Pericles
gives in facilities work is his famous
funeral oration. It occurs near the end
of the first year of the war. Pericles
begins in a daring way criticizing the
law that mandates that such a speech,
such an oration in honor of those who fall
in battle, be made such a law. Parasols
objects. Makes the virtue of the Fallen
depend on whether one man speaks well or
badly. It is fortunately Paradises speech
on which the virtue of the Fallen now depends
for he is the one delivering the aeration.
Virtue depends on its public interpretation
and remembrance. In order to understand
the achievement of those who gave their
lives. For Athens, Pericles says, it
is necessary to understand the city that
they served its regime and its way of life.
Pericles uses both of those words. He
highlights Athens Democratic principles,
which he says favored the many rather than
the few Athens equality. That's one of
the principles, but it permits merit to
rise according preeminence in the city's
affairs to those recognized for virtue
while treating all equally before the law.
In private matters, Pericles own preeminence
by implication, is consistent with Athens
democratic principles. It is that equality
that allows him to rise. Uh Indeed, his
preeminence is due to those principles.
Although Pericles does not say so or brag,
his emphasis is all on Athens, not on
himself. We Athenians, he says, conduct
ourselves with freedom in the first place
we share in political affairs and consider
any who does not do so useless. So the
Athenians are free because they are allowed
to and do participate in politics. We
also differ, he says, from our opponents
in the current war by opening our city
to all, rather than driving out foreigners,
preventing no one from learning about our
practices, even though some enemy might
benefit from seeing what we do not hide.
So too. In private life, neighbor does
not become angry with neighbor, he says,
for doing what he pleases. Athens freedom
is thus based on its strength, its self
sufficiency which carries over into the
lives of its citizens. Athenians do not
have to hide and it is the strong who do
not have to hide. They are. Athenians
are law abiding to be sure and heed. The
rulers and the laws especially, he says
though, the ones that are for the benefit
of those who suffer injustice and the unwritten
laws whose violation bring shame Athenians
are moved less by the fear of punishment,
from violating laws than by their own sense
of the shameful and hence of the noble.
This is a city for which an Athenian might
understandably give his life and in doing
so justify his life as he becomes Peric
lee says, a lover of his city, that's
the funeral oration facilities makes clear
the demanding, even too demanding character.
A Pericles rhetoric when he turns immediately
after the funeral oration to the devastating
plague that visits Athens and the degrading
way in which the Athenians respond to their
suffering during the plague. Indeed,
Athenians commit crimes in the belief that
they will die of the plague before being
punished for them, overcome by sufferings
harsher than human nature can bear. They
blame. They come to blame Pericles for
the war and the Athenians seek peace with
Sparta. Enough of this wartime suffering.
Pericles then comes forward to speak again.
This will be the third speech he gives
in facilities history. Pericles does not
deny that he is to blame for the war,
but he insists that the people too are
responsible because they supported it.
He insists on their common responsibility
as he emphasizes why they should remain
at war by showing his own confidence,
he tries to restore the people's confidence
and thereby to soothe their anger. Just
as Pericles presents Athens as a model
for other cities to imitate. He now presents
himself as a model for the Athenians and
how they should respond to their sufferings.
While the Athenians regret their decision
to go to war because of their sufferings,
Pericles claimed to remain the same and
has not changed. While the Athenians are
confounded by domestic afflictions and
neglect the common affairs of the city,
Pericles claims to be quote a lover of
the city, or that he loves his city.
Only if the Athenians use Pericles as a
model can the distraught Athenians show
themselves worthy of the rule they have
achieved and maintained both their rules
and their freedom. Although other sources
tell us that Pericles lost his son and
other relatives to the plague. Plutarch,
by the way, is one of them. Pericles
does not mention any personal losses in
his public speech before the people, nor
does he recount anything about his family's
experience of the plague. He does not,
metaphorically speaking, bring his family
into court to appeal to his audience is
pity. He stands before the assembly as
self sufficient as the city he describes
In the funeral oration. Pericles persuades
the Athenians to persevere in the war and
they eventually choose Pericles as general
again and turn their affairs over to him.
Whereas Pericles asked them to turn themselves
their affairs over to the city by becoming
its lovers. The people turn to Pericles.
Pericles mediates their love or devotion
to the city. The ways of the city that
Pericles praises as worthy of love become
manifest in the ways of Pericles. Pericles
represents Athens to the Athenians through
speech that both elaborate is fundamental
Athenian ideals and illustrates those ideals
by his own attitude towards them, by his
own bearing. Whatever reservations through
acidity is has about Paraguay's and that's
another interesting question. But whatever
reservations facilities has about Pericles,
he claims that Pericles led Athens when
Athens greatness reached its peak. Now,
Brassard us Brass. It This is what I call
alienation from his city. He is the spark
in general at the outset of the war through
cities tells us Sparta proclaimed its goal
as lip as liberating the greek world from
Athenian domination and gain the goodwill
of many of those cities subject to Athens
and the goodwill of others, fearing that
they would become So facilities does not
tell us what farm that proclamation took
are exactly who made it on behalf of Sparta.
Although many of Sparta's allies refer
to the city's noble purpose, it's like
encouraging them. Come on, you got to
liberate the world right from Athens and
that's good for the Allies. So although
the allies speak of the city's noble purpose,
the Brass it this is the first part and
to do so, several years after the war
began. In other words, it's not clear
that Sparta really has this noble purpose
of liberation. Sparta, Thucydides tells
us fears Athens increasing power. Sparta
is fighting for its own autonomy or preservation.
Brass it is, however, does take an army
on a thracian campaign to the area around
three race and he liberates cities from
Athenian sway. When cities in the greek
world, see are here about Brass addis,
they are impressed by his virtue and they
become more favorable to the Spartan side
in the belief that other Spartans are like
him, but few like Brass, It has come
forth from Sparta in facilities history,
Brass. Adidas misrepresents his city to
the world. When Brassicas and his army
arrive in three race, he explains to the
city's there that events of the war prevented
Sparta from coming earlier to liberate
them. But now Sparta has sent him to prove
true to its purpose. Moreover, Brassicas
says Sparta promises the cities who are
liberated their autonomy. Sparta will
not impose any particular form of government
on them. Indeed Brass idiots would not
truly offer them freedom. He says, if
Sparta were to involve itself in their
internal politics, enslaving the greater
part of their city to the few I establishing
oligarchies are a smaller part to everyone.
I establishing democracies. The city's
gives us reason to doubt Brassicas representation
of his city. Two Brass idiots claim that
Sparta offers the liberated cities autonomy
facilities has just provided a counter
example of oligarchic oppression in Megara
after the city fell to Sparta, moreover,
whereas Brassicas claims that Sparta has
sent him to prove true, it's noble purpose
of liberating cities from Athens through
cities tells us that the Spartans want
to divert the Athenians from operations
nearer to Sparta by threatening the Athenians
elsewhere. Like in the race. Moreover,
the expedition gives Sparta an excuse to
send away some of its slave population
As soldiers in the army facilities points
out less. With the war going badly at
home, the slaves started insurrection
to boot. The Macedonian king offers to
pay some A Brassicas troops who might then
serve Macedonian purposes. Inthe race
from facilities, account slaves and mercenaries
paid by Macedonia and one Spartan. Brassard
dis go to three race as the liberators
of Greece. It's a dramatic moment. I
think if you look at it in those terms,
although Brassard his promises freedom,
He lacks the resources to make good his
promises. Sparta even refuses to send
him reinforcements when he needs them.
After his death, Sparta returns the liberated
cities to Athens as part of its peace negotiations,
Brassicas cannot succeed without the support
of his city. He acts independently of
his city, eventually refusing to obey
its artists to suspend his efforts inthe
race. He finally dies fighting in defense
of one of the city's he liberated from
Athens and Syphilis, where he has given
a public burial and worship as a hero.
He finds a home elsewhere, not in Sparta
and only after his death that Brassard
is acts without the authority of his city
may suggest his freedom, but his alienation
from his city thwarts his accomplishment.
He needs those reinforces reinforcements.
Although admiring Brassicas virtues, facilities
questions his leadership for his own city
does not follow his lead. His virtues
are good, but without support from his
political community. They are not entirely
good. Now I'm moving to Al Subaih these
After Brassicas death, the Spartans and
Athenians negotiate peace one so tendentious
that acidity is, insists that it did not
really end the war during this period Alcibiades
rises to prominence in Athenian politics.
A young man of a distinguished family.
One of the first acts that Thucydides describes
is Alcibiades effort to dissolve Athens
treaty with Sparta. The peace treaty just
negotiated within the last year or two
in favor of an alliance with our ghosts.
Sparta's longtime enemy. Al sobriety is
politics thus ignores agreements that have
been made when better ones become possible.
But it past agreements do not bind. Neither
will new ones if still better ones become
available when Alcibiades binds his city
to an alliance with our Ghost for 100 years.
The terms of the treaty, it might as well
be 200 or 1000. There need be no limit
to promises that can be revoked just before
the Athenian expedition to Sicily, facilities
describes Athens subjugation of the neutral
island of my loss, although al sobriety
is is not present when the Athenians approach
and finally besieged me. Loss, his spirit
hovers over the Athenians attempt to persuade
the millions to surrender. The Athenians
dismiss considerations of justice and appeal
to a necessity of nature by which the strong
subdue the week and the week acquiesce.
This is a law that they did not make,
they explained to the millions and it is
followed by everyone, even the gods.
They echo, the Athenians echo the unjust
speech in Aristotle phonies, clouds when
they appeal to the ways of God's to justify
human wrongdoing that law that they appeal
to, that even the gods father the law
of the stronger has little in common with
the law that Pericles thinks the Athenians
he'd out of a sense of shame, except that
it is unwritten. The Athenians at me lost
hide their hubris behind their appeal to
a necessity that applies to God and human
alike in the Athenians, denial of any
limits to their actions, they manifest
alcibiades politics. Al Subaih cities
is one of the main proponents of Athens
expedition to Sicily, which is really
to conquer the island. Uh He states there's
a speech in the Athenian Assembly that
he gives advocating the expedition, although
Al zubaidi's admits that he knows about
the far away island of Sicily only by hearsay.
He has no experience of the island, He's
never been there. But he nevertheless
proclaims that the cities in Sicily lack
the benefit of established customs. They
are given to faction and they have no sense
of a fatherland. From this account, the
Sicilian cities seem to have no forms of
government or ways of life that give them
an identity Sicily is mere opportunity,
a space for al Subaih these activity,
he nevertheless, he admits, must work
to bring the city's there into alliance
with the Athenians. He will use his persuasive
powers to unite the cities on the island
of Sicily against Syracuse, the most powerful
city there. The world will yield to his
rhetoric or speech. He will conquer not
by the sword, but by the force of his
words. If the world is essentially unformed,
alliances made and easily broken. For
example, al sobriety is does not need
experience of Sicily, he can make it what
he will. Our societies claims that Athens
must undertake the expedition to Sicily,
because unless it rules others, it is
in danger of being ruled by them. There
is quote al societies no reckoning how
far we wish to rule. He is like the Athenians
at Mila's when they warn the millions that
they should not expect the Spartans to
come help them. For the Athenians, our
commanders of the sea, nope, the Spartans
won't be able to reach me loss because
of the Athenian might at sea. The sea
is no wider than their reach. Like al
Subaih cities, they verge on asserting
command of the unlimited or infinite.
A desire for sailing away through cities.
Reports felon all alike. Nicholas, the
Athenian general who spoke against the
expedition had called Athens Desire for
the expedition. A quote diseased love
for the far away. The word translated
as far away, means in greek the absent,
whatever is away, but the absent is infinite.
It is whatever is not present here and
now liberated from the restraint of particular
purposes and objects. Without destination
or goal. Love or desire becomes infinite.
The Athenians are sailing to Sicily, but
the conquest of Sicily opens the imagination
to one conquest after another. Italy after
Sicily, then Carthage, then the Peloponnesus
on which the city of Sparta is located
and eventually all of the greek world.
But Athens never reaches points beyond
Sicily as a result of the expedition,
the expedition meets ruin in Sicily and
few return home. It is our societies who
reaches points beyond Sicily. When the
Athenians summoned him home from Sicily
to face charges of plotting against the
democracy, he escapes by sea, whereas
the Athenians boasted to the millions that
they should not expect aid to arrive because
no one can elude them at sea, our societies
escapes them. It is he who masters the
sea. Pericles defends himself before the
people when they accuse him of causing
the war. You remember implicitly acknowledging
that they can hold him into account, hold
him to account. He has to answer to the
people. When Alcibiades is called to answer
charges, he goes, guess where to Sparta
to advise his city's enemy. And when he
has a falling out with the Spartans as
well, I gather, it's easy to have a falling
out with our societies when he has a falling
out with the Spartans as well. He goes
to advise the Persians, the Persian satrap,
Tissa Farnese in particular, and he advises
him on how to play off Athens and Sparta
against each other. It is our societies
who reaches no stopping point in Thucydides
work for when his when facilities history
breaks off in 4 11 Bc before the end of
the war, which lasted by the 27 year period,
account to around 404 When facilities breaks
his history off in 4 11, al societies
is still alive, negotiating with the Persian
to safari knees and moving from one place
to another and he has still not returned
to Athens. To be sure in the last book
of lucidity is history, Al Subaih. These
plots to return to Athens by overturning
the democratic regime that exiled him in
favor of a more oligarchic one. As one
of his opponents proclaims our societies
is indifferent to regimes and cares only
for the one most likely to lend him support.
But al societies is not simply indifferent
to regimes. He is hostile to all regimes,
regimes, established institutions and
determine who is to rule. Those rulers
therefore do not merely rule. They rule
because they are able to rise to prominence
in their regime and that means they are
also ruled by their regimes. Regimes stand,
that is democracy. Oligarchy, forms of
government, constitutions, written or
not regime stand between the individual
and his city structuring their relationship
and their interaction. Unlike Pericles,
our societies has no recognition of the
importance of a regime in fostering and
protecting freedom. Now I go to my fourth
leader, Nick ius, and his failure to
lead and the disaster that Athens suffered
in Sicily. Nick Ius is the Athenian general
who is sent along with Al zubaidi's is
one of the commanders of the Sicilian expedition.
In spite of his opposition to the undertaking,
Nikias cannot stop the motion that all
societies encourages and is dragged along.
After all, sobriety is flees to Sparta
and another of the co commanders is killed
in battle. Nikias becomes the sole commander
of the Athenian forces in Sicily, where
he didn't want to go in the first place,
he's there in charge when Sparta and her
allies eventually, I'm skipping a lot
of things that happened because as you
know, the book is about this thick and
I was told to end in a timely fashion today.
Uh, So at any rate when Sparta and her
allies come to aid in Sicily, Nicaea sees
no prospect of survival unless the army
quickly returns home. All are substantial.
Help comes from Athens. Now, the commanders
were given from the very beginning full
authority on the expedition. Nevertheless,
Nikias sends a letter to the Athenians
asking them what he should do. You know
the Spartans are coming, The army is deteriorating.
Things are Allah cities on the island of
Sicily are are going over to Syracuse.
The mercenary sailors are deserting to
the other side. Things look pretty bad.
But instead of just saying, we've got
to get out of here and go back, Nicholas
writes, writes a letter to the Athenians.
Uh, swift action in Sicily is imperative.
And we know Athens is some distance away.
That's why Nicky's didn't want to go in
the first place. But Nikias cannot bring
himself to act without the backing of the
city. Whereas Brassicas does not follow
the orders that are sent to him when he's
in trace, Nikki has asked for artists
when he should act on his own. Nikias
fears returning quote unquote to Athens
with his mission unaccomplished and that
he will be held responsible for the expedition's
failure. He does not even think about
trying to persuade the Athenians as Pericles
did that. The ones who approved the enterprise
are also responsible are as responsible
as its leaders for the hardships that result
when Nicky his rights to the Athenians
of their deteriorating condition in Sicily,
he comes close to telling them that their
cause is lost and that they must call the
expedition home, which is what he really
thinks. But he can't. He comes close
to saying it, but he never goes that far.
He flatters the Athenians into supposing
that they are free to deliberate and therefore
to choose. They must either recall the
expedition, he says, or send out another
just as large. And it's gigantic. One
thing I skipped as facilities description
of that expedition as it leaves the piracy
is to go to to sail to Sicily. So send
another one just as large. I recall his
home seems obvious what they should do.
He implies though, that it's still possible
to conquer Sicily and this is what the
Athenians want to hear. This is what they
do here through cities earlier praised
Paraguay's. You remember for instilling
fear when the people were overconfident
and fostering confidence when they are
despondent. Nikias, in contrast, tries
to instill fear, and he makes his audience
overconfident because he himself is moved
more by fear of his addresses than by confidence
in himself. Nicholas must act independently
of his city in order to serve it. He is
too dependent on his city to go home.
The Athenians repeat their earlier decision
to go against Sicily and send another expedition
in support of the first one. It is almost
as if al Subaih, these were still in Athens
influencing its decisions and Nikias were
the one in exile. Even with reinforcements
who eventually come, there are further
disasters for the Athenian side. When
matters gets so bad that the Athenians
seem compelled to depart, there is an
eclipse of the moon and Nikias accepts
the Sears judgment that they must delay
sailing home now. You know, in those
days, every army brought its own seer.
They were the ones who could see the future.
That's what their name means. And so they
could predict what was what would happen.
And we don't have Sears today. We only
have pollsters who also rely on eclipses
of the moon as far as I can tell. Okay,
so Nikias delays listening to the Sears.
Uh, the delay allows their foes to attack.
Once again, the Athenians are defeated
and Nikias eventually surrenders. Nikias
is executed and his soldiers no fewer than
7000. And that's a big number compared
to other battles. No fewer than 7000 are
imprisoned. Many others die, but 7000
are imprisoned where they meet miserable
conditions, including the lack of life's
necessities. And this also results in
a great number of deaths, facilities pronounces
that Nikias did not deserve. The misfortune
he suffered. Inasmuch as I'm trying to
translate this difficult passage as best
I can. The law bread practices of his
life were directed to every virtue the
law bread practices. The virtue that Athens
represents for Pericles, in contrast,
is not simply law bread for it comes from
within law bread virtue asked too much
of human beings when it leaves no room
for choice and too little when it does
not require choice. If Nikki's his decision
to surrender to stop the slaughter of his
men manifest that he has finally learned
to take responsibility. His learning comes
too late. It takes Nikki is a long time
to learn what Pericles knows. I conclude
by drawing some contrast among these leaders
and their successes and failures. Leaders
cannot succeed in abstraction from those
whom they lead, and in particular from
the regimes that inform their actions and
that they influence. In turn, Pericles
holds up to his audience a model of a virtuous
and free Athenian, both in the citizen
he describes and in his own self presentation
before the city, he is able to interpret
Athens to itself as well as to the world.
However much his city's deeds fall short
of his noble words. He presents Athenians
with a view of themselves that they can
imagine might be true. Brazil is also
depicts a noble view of his city to the
world. A Liberator of Greece against Athenian
tyranny with regard to international affairs.
But this is only what Brassy disclaims
Sparta to be. He interprets party to the
world, but not to itself. Brass idiots
delivers no speeches to the Spartan people
in the way that all three of the Athenians,
whom I have discussed do at Athens. When
Sparta denies his request for reinforcements
through cities reports, the denial is
due in part to the envy of spotters. Leading
men. Sparta has several such men who said
it is does not name them, but Brassicas
is not among them. He is in no position
to speak for Sparta. We cannot explain
we we cannot explain his virtue as lucidity
as pericles. Let me go back. We cannot
explain his virtue as facilities explains
Nikki asses as law, bread because Brass,
it is, I think, is a man without a city
and as such, he cannot be a leader Al
Subaih cities. In contrast to Nicholas
seems to embody Athenian freedom. He proclaims
the active character of the city and manifests
that character in his own life. But if
the virtue of an Athenian comes from himself,
the one who most manifests that virtue
is the one who owes leased to the regime
and most to himself, al Subaih. These
claims from exile expect it's his speech
to the Spartans when he appears there in
the city to advise them. He claims that
he wants to repossess his city. If our
societies could succeed in coming home,
he would be an opinion due to his own act.
His homecoming would mean not that he belonged
to Athens, but that Athens belonged to
him. If Athens could become the home of
a man who acts as freely as our societies
does and who therefore possesses his city
through his own efforts, it would no longer
be a free city and al Subaih these facilities
lets us see the dilemma of being a leader
in a free regime. Al Subaih teases so
free that he cannot lead his city. Whereas
our societies is lawless and facilities,
uses the word lawless beyond or outside
the law or even contrary to the law. Whereas
Alcibiades is lawless. Nikias follows
orders. He obeys the Athenian Assembly
when it appoints him to command in Sicily.
In spite of his reservations about the
expedition, he asked for direction when
he commands in Sicily. Whereas Alcibiades
does not understand what his freedom owes
to the Athenian regime. Nikias does not
exercise the freedom that is Athens characteristic
excellence. His dependence contributes
to the disaster in Sicily. It is through
cities, Para Clay's, I argue, who held
together respect for Athens regime's laws
and way of life with the freedom for human
action that the regime made possible and
made it worthy of respect. Pericles praises
the choice of the noble over the pleasant,
the just over the advantageous and the
public good over private interests, choices
that manifest freedom. Such choices may
serve the pursuit of power, but they also
moderated because they give it a purpose
purpose, both restraints, freedom and
calls for its exercise. And so Pericles
and facilities are so pericles and facilities
instruct their addressees. Neither Alcibiades
nor Nikias was able to find in Athens the
home that Pericles did. Al sobriety speaks
of his city as unlimited motion, whereas
Nikias tries to maintain Athens at rest
or at least to do what is necessary to
maintain the peace that he negotiated,
but which is never secure. Whereas Nikias
prefers never to leave home. The flexible
al Subaih cities is at home everywhere,
whether among the Athenians, the Spartans
the Persians, precisely because he understands
the world as a reflection of his own formless
nous that he is Athens greatest failure
does not reflect, does not prevent through
city's preference for Athens over Sparta,
just as he prefers Pericles leadership
to that of the other leaders, he describes.
The superior city is the one that not only
allows, but also demands freedom and in
which leaders can therefore follow its
lead. Thank you. Well, the floor is
open for questions. You can just call
on people. Sure, okay. I know we have
lots of Okay back there. Really. Mr Yeah.
Leader receive this is Yes to see really
a positive part. Never mind. Yeah. Yes.
Currently is his term of office. Democracy
was on the road ruled by the first sentence
thinkable six. Where we get this debate,
these two characters from Ocrates in an
address Congress has the sort of most full
throated defense of democracy in the book.
He does cross also serious arrested situation.
Yes, so mhm other aspects of the book,
Of course, no, those are two excellent
examples to bring up in this regard. Uh
when facilities praises pericles in the
course of that, he says that Athens was
a democracy and name but ruled by its first
man, uses the word on air in greek for
a man now, does this mean that it was
not simply a democracy? I think the point
that facilities is making and I still see
Pericles as a democratic leader. I make
that argument. So I have and I know I
have to defend that and this is a passage
that counters goes against that thesis
of mine. But I think what facilities is
show is suggesting by that remark and showing
us in the course of his history and that
apparently is himself suggested in his
speech, is that democracy requires leadership
and that democracy cannot be based simply
on a kind of consensus that is going to
arise in some way without leadership or
without the guidance of leaders. Pericles
in his speech when he talks about equality
as a democratic principle, he says, it
allows merit to rise, we do not be a card
preeminence in public affairs to those
who deserve it, not on the basis of class
or birth, I think he says. And in that
sense, he is his leadership. And even
though he is, in a way, quote ruling
it is and he is the first man when he is
in power, uh, it is still a democratic
city. And if you look at what lucidity
shows us about some of the examples which
I didn't talk about here, uh, how and
these could be brought up as you do. As
you're two examples do that to say that
parents that Pericles really was not a
democratic leader, but had power in his
hands. There are two times when he has
to to restrain the people and and to go
against what they want to do in the first
place. When Sparta takes the field and
they have assembled outside of the walls
of Athens, they want to send, they send
a messenger and they want to negotiate.
And paragliders will not let that messenger
in. He will not let the messenger go before
the people to consider terms. Uh and that
is his rule. He will not call a democratic
assembly, but it is said that he put that
policy in existence so that the people
would not be overcome by their own fear
by their passion and seeing the enemy just
before the gates, it's something to deliberate
without the enemy there, but when they're
there and you can see the yeah, when you
can see their weapons and you can see their
swords or whatever they have glowing in
the sun. I don't know if that's what's
part of hell. They had shields. I know,
but others had uh swords glowing in the
sun that brass it has had to encounter.
You don't want the, you want them to stick
by their decisions. So it's an example
that facilities brings up where it looks
like Pericles is restraining the people
from deliberating. When facilities actually
explains it as a case in which Pericles
was trying to preserve the deliberation
of the people you can argue against. Well,
you know, maybe they should have had a
chance, but that at least is how facilities
explains it. The second, the second instance
when the Spartans are devastating the land
outside the city and some of those, the
Accordions who are the owners of the land,
are seeing this. They want to go out and
fight the Spartans right there on a land
battle and Pericles has to hold them back
and he will not hold an assembly to decide
what to do. He wants them to stick to
the policy that he had propounded and they
had agreed on no new no land battles.
Put an emphasis on your C power. So he
it's one more time when he doesn't call
an assembly and that looks very anti democratic.
But given the situations that facilities
describes it seems like he's trying to
hold the people to the deliberation into
the decisions they made rather than to
give way to the passions that are aroused
in the circumstances. So in in these various
was I think the emphasis of facilities
is on its democracy, but you have to have
leaders in a democracy. You can't think
that democracy doesn't have leaders when
Pericles talks about the participation
of everyone, If he were just the ruler,
the authoritarian ruler, that would make
no sense. But when he talks about it,
he says that everyone participates at least
the Athenian citizens whether judging or
pra pounding policy. So there are different
ways of participating in a democracy,
from Pericles presentation of it. And
he does the propounding I think. And that
seems to me clear to the way through cities
presents it and he is not simply equal
to the others. They do not participate
in the same way that for facilities does
not negate Athens being called a democracy,
but it's not simply a simple egalitarian
democracy. And your other example about
you pronounce it? I'm sure in the right
way I'm not very good in greek, but all
I can remember is Athena Gorris, but Athena
Garris, I'm sure there must be horrified.
Well, these words, when they have glorified
syllables think of all the different ways
you could pronounce them. Well, not really,
but at any rate, he's an interesting character.
He doesn't say much or play much of a role.
He's he's one of the Syracuse and figures.
I did not speak of all the leaders, only
a four of them. Well, we have Herm Ocrates
who is the Syracuse and leader of note,
and Athena Gorris who speaks against him.
And in his short speech, Athena Gorris
presents the uh a defense of democracy,
accusing Herm Ocrates quite explicitly
applauding, you know, uh to bring the
aristocratic youth into, to make the elites
in charge and Athena Gore's defense democracy.
And it looks like, you know, one of the
few, if not the only, or maybe at least
the best defense of democracy in the city's
history. But the way he defends democracy
is because of the various pieces that come
together. He describes it as a kind of
mixed regime that is based on the many,
the few and the, I don't recall the worthy
or the virtuous, the best and so all of
those mean democracy for him, that seems
to me more consistent with what I am describing
as Pericles on democracy uh than than you
might think so I can use Athena Gore is
a statement as defense of Pericles and
what he did. There seems to me somewhat
similar, a kind of mixture of different
things where a lot of different people,
but factors are allowed to play a part
where you can come up with a mixture guided
by a statesman and get the best out of
the situation. I won't say more than that
because I have talked about your examples
and I know there are other questions but
I too agree that Athena Gorris is a very
interesting figure in trying to figure
and and wondering what he's doing in facilities
work and what role he plays and that's
related to the larger question of facilities
view of Syracuse. Another quote, Democratic
city that has some of the problems that
Athens Athens does, but I won't go there
unless anyone else wants to push there
because I want to see what other questions
are waiting. Yes. Figure. It seems that
we want to be seen skates and your economy
is Yes, very, yes, yes, whatever may
be. All right. Apparently, that's a
very interesting question, idiots. Well,
it would be another fine. No, it's just
that I present. I have a I have shown
a friend, a friend of mine read this a
version of this and she said, you know,
it's good, but you're just too sympathetic
to parallels. That's why I threw that
in because I don't think, I mean, I think
I said he is the best of these leaders
from facilities point of view, but sometimes
you just have to choose the best of your
options. You may notice this in the last
few days we had to do that. Uh, I think
Pericles is good for all of the reasons,
but uh gay but he's not lucidity ease.
And if I'm right in that he presents facilities,
presents him as uh, self sufficient in
his stance before the city, facilities
protects his self sufficiency. Plutarch.
Others tell us that he had relatives suffer
from the plague. He actually was devastated
when the last of his sons died of the plague.
And what facilities does tell us is that
Pericles died? Plutarch tells us he died
of the plague. And so facilities is protecting
Pericles in a way and going along with
this kind of myth of self sufficiency.
And maybe there are times I think when
a city needs that, but lucidity is knows
that his pericles is not self sufficient
and lucidity is is not self sufficient.
The greatest model for us to imitate from
facilities. Point of view is that of lucidity
is not apparent please or any of these
other leaders. But the acidity is writes
well, uh that gets complicated given the
fact that he did lead an expedition at
one point uh in the war. But in the sense
of how facilities presents himself as a
model, Pericles presents himself as a
model and lucidity shall we say? Let's
Pericles do that. Indeed, he presents
Pericles as a model facilities does. But
soon, as we get what what facilities does
is tell us immediately about the plague.
Which suggests that Pericles is overreaching
that he has demand that his rhetoric demands,
which I did say in this paper, his rhetoric
demands too much of the Athenians. I believe
it's Pericles who calls the Athenian self
sufficient when through acidity is uses
that word self sufficient. And there are
three other examples where facilities uses
it if I remember, it's never in that good
sense. It's always a problem when through
cities uses it in his own voice. Through
cities is finds that there are problems
with the stance of this noble presentation
of freedom that Pericles cakes, but he
allows Pericles to do it in the first place.
Maybe because maybe it's needed at certain
times, but it's also too demanding. And
I think he shows the dangers of that as
well. There is an issue, you know, as
to whether Paraclete has led to the disaster
of Athens for one. And there there there
there are a lot of theories that say if
our societies is the main culprit here,
and I think our societies and Nikki is
combined are the main culprits. But if
Alcibiades is the main problem with his,
shall we say, over interpretation of Athenian
freedom and his attempt to embody it,
and it leads to a kind of disaster, which
I would argue. Do you then can raise the
question of whether is our survival as
the true heir of Pericles, isn't it?
Pericles in his support of the Athenian
empire? In his saying, let's go to our,
in his saying, as he does. And at the
end of one of his speeches, we really
rule the whole world because we rule the
sea, the one who rules the sea rules the
land. So you have nothing to worry about,
Look how powerful we are. That's the kind
of rhetoric that looks a bit excessive.
And you could argue that leads to our societies
rhetoric. If that's the case, then that
would be part of the acidity. Xyz criticism
of Paraguay's, on the other hand, Pericles
didn't go that way. He didn't go in that
direction. As long as he was living,
he would have, I'm assuming, prevented
the Sicilian expedition. There's a little
ambiguity as to whether Athens is still
at war. He's quite clear. Pericles no
new conquest while you are at war, but
they do have that so called peace with,
with Sparta, that Nikias negotiated and
you might think they're not at war. But
even Nikias admits what lucidity says,
the piece is not secure. So, I think
we are safe to say to project that Pericles
would not have supported the Sicilian expedition
and therefore he didn't go as far as our
societies. Our societies is is Athenian
freedom unleashed. Pericles was able to
hold it in in in some kind of bounds that
his successes were unable to do. But there
is still that feeling that maybe he could,
he didn't, why didn't he educate others
better? I know you've heard that criticism,
why didn't he provide for the kind of leadership
that was lacking after he died? Assuming
he is a good leader, a good leader would
do more than Pericles did. He would have
thought more of the future than Pericles
did. And he would not have assumed that
he was self sufficient. And you don't
have to worry about his dying, which in
effect he does without trying to provide
for the future facilities protects him
a bit on that issue as well. Because he
never says what all the ancient sources
say that Alcibiades was the How do you
say the opposite of that? Pericles was
the guardian and uncle of all societies.
The city facilities never says that he
breaks that connection, as if he is trying
to disassociate Pericles from our societies
so that he Pericles will not seem responsible
for this nephew of his, whom he should
have contained better than he did. So
I think that's one of the ambiguities and
trying to figure out how far facilities
would criticize Pericles. And I do think
it's on the issue of nobility self sufficiency
that Pericles assumes for himself. Uh
And also that he thinks that others can
live up to when in fact they can't, but
he nevertheless encourages responsibility
and the people, I would argue. So like
all things, it's mixed. How could you?
Pericles tries to walk a kind of middle
line, right? When he says no new conquest
while you are at war? Well, in a, in
a way that's almost very hard to maintain.
Maybe you can, maybe Pericles can do it,
but they'd always be pulling on either
side of that. Even when Pericles was alive,
he did not have such perfect power in Athens.
That's another way to and to go back to
the question of Pericles and democracy,
which I didn't go into. But there are
other instances that facilities tells us
that shows that Pericles doesn't have absolute
sway as when they call him before the city
to blame him for the war and they find
him. So it's not like he's got all the
power in the city, but so I got interrupted,
which was my thought devon It was, yeah,
the credit facilities criticism, uh,
of Pericles, Well, I'll just leave it
at that unless you want to push it. There's
a, there's, there's more, I mean, the
senate facilities does not have. Pericles
mentioned that his family died of the plague.
It would be an opportune time that people
are blaming him their suffering. He could
go before them and say, look, I'm suffering
to, you know, my favorite son just died.
I feel your pain. He could do that very
easily because he has felt their pain because
it's his pain and he doesn't do that.
And Thucydides doesn't have him do that.
Uh, facilities then goes on to describe
the plague. And in the course of that
description of the plague, lucidity says,
I can tell you about it because I saw it
and because I came down with the plague
myself, the plague attacked to me. So
he treats, he presents himself in as a
file for Pericles, whichever way you go.
It doesn't matter. He contrast himself,
but uh, with Pericles, uh, facilities
is not pretending to an invulnerability
that Pericles pretends to. And in a way,
I think that would make him a more humane
leader then. Pericles was I don't know.
Mm Yes, maybe you can clarify uh huh uh
huh feet ever love from Yeah, pieces and
I think you suggest that here is Oh also
even in the world of honor. Yes. Morning
fire. Exactly. Well I am aware that people
who love honor can be compelled to do all
kinds of crazy things and dangerous things
to themselves and to their city. But at
the same I guess I was saying that it's
it's free or in the sense that it's a noble
because you do have to rise above putting
your own life cursed to do the honorable
thing and that was the point I was trying
to stress and that's why I was connecting
it. I would only go so far in making that
case because of the it is a compulsion
the Athenians say I mean the the uh the
embassy, the envoys in Sparta, they say
it's one of three compulsions and then
they use that word necessities. Pericles
emphasizes honor more than the others.
At the same time he emphasizes a theme
and freedom and a lot of different kinds
of ways by way of their actions, both
individual, both as individuals and as
the city. And he he emphasizes honor along
with that appeal to freedom. So I was
trying to explain why he could do that.
Now even Pericles doesn't simply he obviously
has a rhetoric that will appeal to fear
as well as facilities himself says when
they're overconfident, he uh made them
afraid. So he's aware of using fear.
Like in the last three she gives when he
says our empire may have been unjust to
acquire. But now we have it, we can't
let it go. In other words there if we
try to let go and do the do the dress thing,
if that is the dress thing, they will
come kill us. So we really are. We should
be afraid of the ones we rule. So Paraclete.
I didn't mean to say he didn't appear appeal
to fear or interest at all, but the emphasis
is on honor and he connects honor with
freedom. Yes. So it sounds like now.
Bye. Do what? Five? Okay. And Mhm.
Mhm. Expedition was launched in part.
I would argue that. Yes. Mhm. My question
is why, right. One of the main causes
of Sicily mission and therefore at this
uh huh. Did the lovely expedition not
after all supplied to speak? Yeah, I
noticed that. I mean, I think the when
when through Sydney says, and arrows were
sailing away fell on all alike. He then
goes on and it becomes a bit complicated
because they are not all alike, but that's
at least how he begins that paragraph.
Uh, and it is after Nikias Second speech
And Nic Nicky has helped that along by
trying to counter they're going. But the
idea of sailing away uh huh That comes
from our societies, Nikki has tried to
keep them from sailing away and promoted
what our society is wanted by giving those
who are more afraid of the expedition,
greater confidence that it could succeed
as acidity is presents that as you know,
because uh, Nikki's goes on and on about
how much we're going to need to conquer
Sicily, men supplies, how far away it
is. It's too difficult even if we conquered
it, we couldn't rule it because it's too
far away. Every reason not to go. And
so Nicholas intends to keep them there.
And the rhetoric is just counterproductive.
They decide all the more and that's when
facilities makes the point are also for
sailing away. Fell in all alike. Nikki
has helped it along, but not not because
he had it, it seems to me to come from
our society. So, I mean, it's again,
that would maybe confirmed that it takes
both of them. Our societies, shall we
say love or arrows and nick uses over caution
to produce it, oddly enough. Oh, sorry.
I wonder if you would say a little bit
more about your judgment of Brassicas.
Uh, because as as you, as you brought
it out, he's a fundamentally alienated
from Sparta. Uh, and so he makes this
extraordinary attempt to make Sparta live
up to its noblest claim or reputation.
Um, and so my question is, what, how
do you understand what was going on in
his mind? And do you judge it favorably
or unfavorably? That is, as you point
out, there's plenty of evidence that Sparta
was never going to move in this direction.
And so what he wound up doing was getting
these cities to revolt against Athens and
then getting them turned over to the tender
mercies of Athens at the end of the day?
Uh And so is how do you understand what
he was? What did he think? Was he was
he was doing or going on? Was it was it
uh how how how are we to understand that?
Well, I have wondered, and we don't have
certain evidence from vicinities, but
since the vicinities praises his virtues,
uh I think he was, you know, it was his
cause. Did he think that Sparta would
come? Was he not able to? Was he so naive
to think that Sparta would send the reinforcements?
And he did surprise? I mean, maybe he
wasn't he He almost did it. He almost
got away with liberating the city's, he
doesn't have the reinforcements, but he
gains more from the city's. He liberates
people join him and he did so well. That's
what upset Athens so much and lead them
to negotiate. But all the rhetoric he
used was really appealing to those under
Athens way. Of course their interests
did and their fear dead. Because he's
got his soldiers out there. At one point
when a campus decides the first one to
yield, they say the crops, they better
protect their crops because the Spartan
army will destroy their crops. So you've
got interest and fear as well as appealing
to the desire for freedom and self determination
in away our autonomy. I think he believed
in those goals. I mean, maybe I'm naive
and maybe he was naive, but he thought
he might carry it off. And I think that
was absurd. And as you say, there's all
the evidence to the contrary that facilities
gives us that there is no way that's part
is going to do that. But in a way he was
sparked as Yeah, I will say it any way
I can see the best moment because he did
when when it is sad. I think it's at the
beginning of book two of the history that
Sparta proclaimed its purpose is liberating
grease from Athens rule and no one says
as far as Spartans, don't say it, who
says it. And so I decided to see who said
it. And if you look if you look at Arkad
Obama's speech and book one when he talks
about purpose and what kind of war it is
has nothing to do. There are reasons to
go to war, But we're going to do it in
a cautious manner. Nothing to do with
liberating cities are helping the greek
world out and nothing along those lines.
It's the, it's current, the Corinthians
who mentioned that and our Academia's does
not pick up on it. When Arkad Amos gives
his first speech as a general to the army
outside of Athens, it's one of these speeches
where you rouse the army and you tell them
all the noble things you're trying to accomplish
never mentions the purpose. It seems conspicuously
absent from Spartan speeches. Uh, when,
when the mental Iranians come over to get
sparked and help when they revolt in book
three, they mentioned that purpose. Everyone
knows it's part is purpose except the Spartans
themselves. And so I think facilities
is very critical of Sparta more than a
lot of people who read this book. And
when Brass, it is not only proclaims that
he is the first part and to do it, and
he actually acts on it. You know, when
the I don't know how to pronounce these.
Either the Charles citians, perhaps they
come over to request aid from Sparta,
let's there inthe race. And they say we
want Brass. It is to come. They've been
watching and they and they said we want
him because he is and it's a doer. It's
a wonderful greek word. I don't know.
I know it's from a common verb, but it's
not used that often. The draw history
on the act, the one who acts. That's
Brass it this, you know, and you know,
he is the best that Sparta can put forward.
I think what is part of known for. I don't
know if it's ambiguous, I was gonna say
it's action or it's being at rest and you
can you can make a case in either way but
Brass it, this is the actor and he will
act for those ideals that the whole world
is hoping that Sparta will live up to and
only Brassard as it does. He dies. I
mean, he runs into the battle, the first
one. There's nothing left for him to do.
I mean, he couldn't go home. He's already
resisted the commands of his superiors.
I don't see any evidence. One other of
a possible explanation which I think is
waiting and that he was he was uh somehow
he knew and he was very you have to say
you could you could give a very machiavellian
type interpretation of what Brassicas does.
He knows that it's not going to work.
But if he gets those cities to come over
to Sparta side, it will be easier for
Sparta to return them and therefore get
what's part of most desires a piece and
to have its soldiers all Spartans return
their prisoners in Athens from the disaster
on the islands, bacteria spark is very
interested in negotiating and getting the
return of the prisoners. And so once Brassicas
succeeds to the extent he does, Athens
becomes willing to do that, to negotiate
with Sparta to have a peace treaty and
return the prisoners. So the Machiavellian
interpretation is he's trying to help his
city out because he knows exactly what
they're gonna do and by lying to the world,
at least to the cities that he appeals
to, he will get them to risk themselves
which they do because Athens is not going
to be pleased with them at all for their
revolt. He's gonna endanger them to fought
to follow what he views in this part of
use as its own interest. And that's really
Machiavellian. But I don't see through
acidity is telling us that. And he tells
us a lot of things by in many ways. I
mean it's one of the things about reading
facilities. How does he tell us things
in his own words, by his justice positions,
by the stories he recounts. And I mean,
I think you can't brazil, this is a noble
man and lucidity ease admires his virtues.
That's what I've said in the paper and
I would stick to it if he were the Machiavelli
and that I have just given an account of
I don't think I could unless facilities
admires Machiavellian virtues. Well,
that's another direction one might go.
But I I think he admires the virtues that
he attributes to him. I believe what he
says. That Brazil has had all of these
and he was the way the world respected
Sparta because they thought he represented
Sparta. Yes. Mhm. Mhm. This appears
right. Yes. Yeah. Key along with clear
the two men who are the most opposed product
73%. So vicinities is used to recite this
as a shining example virtue. How do you
make sense about? Well, I don't think
leon is a shining example of virtue by
any way of interpreting it. And I again,
I can see different interpretations of
brass. It is on this one. Uh I think
that they do die in the same battle but
the role they play in that battle is so
different that I think we would have to
if we are guided by through cities and
are looking at that battle, we would have
to contrast these two leaders who die in
that battle rather than see their similarity.
It is true that they would they resist
the peace, but you could say they resist
the piece as far as facilities presents
it for somewhat different reasons. You
could say clearly on at least from the
way he dealt with wanted to deal with metal
lean from the speech he gives in the Medellin
Ian debate in the Athenian Assembly. From
other things we see of the way through
cities describes him as a very, shall
we say, Angry man wants revenge. He's
kind of brutal in his practice is uh exactly
the opposite of the way through cities
presents Brassicas. He calls brass. It
is gentle. That is one of the words the
adjectives he uses to praise brass idiots
and we see his brass idiots laying out
terms for the surrender of the city that
are so generous that other cities want
to come over to. Brassard as you know.
And so when you look at his deeds versus
clearance deeds and speeches as facilities
presents them. The difference between
them seems to me so clear that I don't
think we could say that they are alike.
The fact that they both die in the same
battle. It seems to me to highlight the
different characters that are now quote
representing or not as the case may be
their cities, the different characters
that have come out of those cities, even
if they're not farmed by those cities,
at least US cities at their best. I mean
the battle is quite it's the battle at
Amphipolis, the last battle in which Brass
it is killed. I mean he leads the way
he leads a few soldiers. It's almost cory
Alleyne is like if you read Shakespeare's
play, it's so amazing. But the way he
said it is describes it. He leads the
forces and he says he's it's so clear he
wants to do the first one out there. It
parallels the situation when he was in
that boat at pilots and he said, we're
going to go and we're going to ground our
boat so we can have no retreat. And he's
standing in the tip of the boat. He's
the one who gets wounded there as a result
is the same pattern that lucidity shows
us. He is first into the battle clear
on, in contrast, was never intending
to have the battle of Amphipolis. Uh,
he wanted to make sure as at another city
that he had redeemed from its liberation,
That Brassicas wasn't there before he attacked.
He's waiting for reinforcements. Cleon
jones men say, we've just got to go out.
It's an opportune time. And Clinton says,
okay, well go out and we're gonna take
a look, we're just going out to look And
sure enough brass it is. Looking from
the hide, sees them, comes down to act,
but and then then the army retreats and
clear Iran's army where he is, breaks
ranks and that leads to the disaster I
believe uh, to sit as these reports,
something like, oh, I don't know how
many Athenians died versus how many of
those on Brassard is aside, it's a huge
I can't remember. Can anyone? Yes, yeah.
Adam fearfulness. The Athenians and seven
starts. That's always you raised my did
he say Spartans this part and side even
in the battle of the 15? Yeah, yeah.
It's only seven on this part, which the
crisis is one because he ran straight into
the middle of 15, which could be interpreted
as you've misinterpreted as his remarkable
courage. But it also raises another question
because it comes right as a moment must
be going that his whole project coming
around. It is and so at least tails wonder
whether it was an exclusive Yeah, No,
I think it was to some extent. Well,
in the sense that let me not say, let
me not go that far, I think he knew he
was going to die in this battle and he
placed himself in a situation where that
was likely, you may say that's enough
to indicate suicide. I admit that much.
You know, he is he is sacrificing or praying
or whatever it is, visiting a temple.
I believe the temple to Athena just before
the battle, which would in a way be some
evidence for that interpretation. Why
I still think I'm not putting the fact
he thinks it's all over, there's nothing
he can do but die. I had said he couldn't
go home. He's ruled that out. So that
supports that too. But what he's doing
is one last I'll say stand. But of course
he's never standing. He's always running.
That's how facilities describes him. So
it's like one last run that indicates our
represents to the world the best that Sparta
could be our his courage and he dies because
he can't go home. But he's not just saying
you can kill yourself with poison. There
are many ways you could kill yourself.
This is how he decided to do it. In one
last image of the best that Sparta could
put forth and he is that representing his
city. So I agree with what you're saying
and I think there is that going on. But
I would put that other twist on it to preserve
his nobility in that very last act. You
see the kind of yeah, really agree with
because he's the last best hope of anthropologie
tins or how are you and his death while
they regarded as this heroic system such
extent they almost turned him into or leads
them far more exposed survive. So it seems
to me it has it it's something of a caps
under the whole residents account an apparent
mobility. They do each those. It is supposed
to two no use them exposing vulnerable.
Doesn't is genuinely a service and to some
extent this city should that there was
something resplendent about grasses, his
mobility, but also something hobble.
Well, I agree with that to some extent.
You know what I said that his virtues were
not simply good because they were not supported
by his city and I was going and when I
said that I was going somewhat in the direction
you're going in that that facilities could
not be simply praiseworthy of brass. It
is because of the great damage he did.
And one city Schiavone, in fact, I think
its name was who got it was treated terribly
by Athens once the peace came about and
it was returned and taken over again by
the Athenians. In fact, what happens
there is exactly what Leon was supporting
in the metal lini in debate with regard
to Medellin. But it actually happened
with Schiavone be lost as well for that
matter. Uh, so I don't, I agree that
he wants facilities was not entirely supportive
of those virtues and saw their problem.
It's difficult, you could say to combine
the noble and the advanced advantageous
and that calls into question the noble
to the extent you can't but with regard
I don't think there was anything else that
Sparta could do. I mean, what was he
to do at that point? He had no reinforcements.
Uh, so I'm not sure what he's staying
alive with me. I think perhaps by his
death he did the best he could do. And
what he did do though with regard to Amphipolis
for that city, which was one you could
say that was dear to his heart and vice
versa. Given how they treated him after
he died by making him a hero and having
public worship to him and having his public
burial there, it preserved itself in facilities
account. I don't know that future beyond
facilities history. But curiously enough,
the Spartan whom the Spartans had sent
over to rule it rather than Brass. It
is the Spartan man. I think his name is
clearly, clearly does. Can you pronounce
it? I mean, well, you must know. I
don't know. But there was a Spartan and
he's part of that battle. Uh Brass it
is tells him to how to react. He says,
let me go first. And they'll think that
we're not that strong. Then you leave
forces if you say yes and it will, it
will really ralph that will see you will
have the advantage of surprise, turns
out they're not needed. But Clara is actually
comes in as planned. Well at once, Sparta
says, and the tree, this peace of Nikias
and the cities have to be in terms Clay
artists thus sparking who they said. So
that Brass, it wouldn't be a problem for
them anymore. He refuses to give and I
think that was back. He's he they don't
return it as far as I can tell within the
confines of facilities history. He holds
out. So my interpretation of that is that
Brass. It is inspired him to be more than
simply, I'll say a spartan. Let me tell
you when when Brassicas gives clear instructions
and he says you come leading the soldiers,
run out there so you can route the Athenians,
he says to him now act like a spartan and
that's the word sparky height. You know,
act like a sparky height. Act like the
sparty it you are. So he's saying this
is what Spartan virtue is. Brassicas is
talking about spartan virtue. It's an
interpretation. We don't know who else
besides Brassicas. And now this other
one ever did it ever had was that virtuous.
But when he refuses to give back the city
which is to refuse to follow orders, the
peace treaty, what he's doing is not acting
like a spartan, He's acting like brass.
Adus well thank you very much.